Talk:Zzyzx, California

Zzzz Street
There is no Zzz and Zzzz street! Well there is, but it's in Italy: http://maps.google.nl/maps?f=q&hl=nl&geocode=&ie=UTF8&ll=45.879433,8.067237&spn=0.00487,0.009398&z=17

I suggest removing that sentence since it's not underlined by any source. --Rderijcke (talk) 02:03, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Merge with Zzyzx Road
It was sensible to merge this page with Zzyzx Road, but we ended up with the merged article's principal title being Zzyzx Road rather than Zzyzx, California, which makes no sense - the place does exist and is recognised by the US Govt, which makes it a more sensible referent than the road. So I have reversed things. seglea 22:19, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Mojave Road
The article reads "The Mojave Road ran past the spring...." Why the past tense? Mojave Road still passes Zzyzx Spring. --- Desertphile, October 20th 2007.

History
There is still a lot to be added here about the history of this location before it became Zzyzx in 1944:
 * Hancock's Redoubt, the U.S. Army fort built on the site in 1860
 * Tonopah and Tidewater Railroad, abandoned in 1940
 * Soda Dry Lake and Soda Springs on the edge of the settlement (Zzyzx has apparently been referred to as Fort Soda, Soda Springs, and Zzyzx Springs)
 * The "Zyport", and whether or not that was the same airstrip that is now called "Zzyzx Airstrip" on the old T&T railroad grade
 * We should ask Desertphile to come here and update this page. Soda Springs and Horse Thief Springs are part of the horriffic history of slaughter of the Native Americans in the region. Lee Hayes lives in Baker, and he also knows a great deal about the history. I see that Desertphile is registered on WikiPedia, I think I'll go ask him to update the history if he has time. Fredric Rice (talk) 16:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

We need a better picture
I may be traveling to Las Vegas sometime in the next month. Hopefully I will be able to get a better picture of Zzyzx Road while en route! The current picture is blurry and is low contrast. --Coolcaesar 06:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No worries, I have a much better image, just have to find it...

--User:snakefisch 12:49, 11 August 2006 (GMT)


 * On May 31st I replaced Image:Zzyzx Road.jpg with Image:Zzyzx road.jpg, because the second one is of better quality, is a closer view of the sign, and shows the mountains in the background. —Christopher Mann McKayuser talk 22:38, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

pronunciation
how is it pronounced. worth putting in lead? Mccready 17:31, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, hats off to whoever wrote "Isaac's, not physics" Gorman 05:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So it's pronounced as "Zei-zix" with the accent on the first syllable, rhyming with "Isaac's", not "physics". Wouldn't that make it "Zei-zax" then? Otherwise I don't see how "zix" can be pronounced to rhyme with "Isaac's". -- Ritchy 00:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally, I pronounce "Isaac" rather like "eye-zik", so "Isaac's" would come out "eye-ziks". Jordan Brown 07:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * My hat stays firmly on. Ad hoc pronunciations are always bad news because they are ambiguous. Many people pronounce "Isaac's" as /"aI.z@ks/. In any case, how is "zai" meant to be pronounced? The intention is as in the first syllable of "xylophone" and "zydeco", but the digraph "ai" is rarely pronounced in English in the way intended here - it is more often like the vowel in "day".


 * IPA is the way to go because it removes all ambiguity. I've commented out the unhelpful and misleading "Isaac's/physics" text. &mdash; Paul G 08:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It's hard to remove ambiguity when there are 2 different, contradictory IP A pronunciations given in the 1st 2 sections of the article. 72.93.175.171 (talk) 04:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Are there any references for the new pronunciation inserted by [[User:SuperSuperBoi] on 31 May 2008? If not, I suggest to revert. 84.155.203.93 (talk) 08:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * No response for over a month, so I've removed it. - AdelaMae (t - c - wpn) 22:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I notice that the IPA has been changed to reflect more of an "Isaac" pronunciation, not an "Isaac's" pronunciation, which I always thought was correct. But I've never been up that way, so I wouldn't know. It just seems wrong. But I won't touch it. YellowAries2010 (talk) 22:04, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Anon. IP w/o comment, so I reverted. — kwami (talk) 23:11, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for tackling that. Wasn't sure what to do. YellowAries2010 (talk) 14:46, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Stone Sour
What exactly does their Zzyxz Rd have to do with this one? I actually started to believe it was a typo on their part, but on a huge album like this, I doubt it.


 * It is spelled Zzyzx Rd., not Zzyxz Rd. --Dpaulat (talk) 20:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Large unsourced addition
The material below sounds plausible, but the anon who added it claims it was from "personal interviews', so it's not appropriate for the article until we have a published source:

"Springer was one of a number of radio preachers who located in California in the 1930's and 1940's. He actually filed for mining land grants to claim the land in not only his name but that of his wife and children, and eventually was convicted of fraud in those claims.  He chose the site because, he claimed, it held the remains of what he called "Fort Soda," a small adobe brick rest point that had been built and used by the U.S. Cavalry during conflict with Indian tribes in the area in the late 1800's.  A small hilltop peak just above those ruins was also one of the most prominent landmarks in the vicinity.

Springer made recordings of sermons at the location, originally on records, and later on audio tape, that were sent to radio stations around the United States. He supported his operations partly from donations sent to him by listeners. He promised all who sent donations that they might enjoy a "free California vacation" by visiting his site - but neglected to explain that Zzyzx Springs was in the middle of the desert, devoid of diversions except for his hot mineral and mud baths, and that visitors on Sundays had to listen to his sermons, delivered via a huge loudspeaker system perched on the peak above the site. However, Springer also was devoted to healthy foods, and served immense free meals in a central cafeteria made from the best available fresh fuits and vegetables. Springer also served the meat of goats and rabbits, which were all raised on the grounds. Shortly before he was evicted, Springer claimed that he had constructed the world's largest underground rabbit warren at Zzyzx Springs, all made from railroad ties taken from the abandoned Tonopah Railway.

Construction of the facilities began in 1944 and continued up to the day Springer was removed from the grounds. Nearly all the work was done by "volunteers" from various homeless shelters and "missions" in downtown Los Angeles. Initially, Springer used a stretched airport shuttle car to collect his volunteers at the famous Midnight Mission in Los Angeles, taking them out to the Springs several hours' drive east. There the men, many of whom were chronic alcoholics, were given the best food and spring water while put to work hand-forming mud bricks to build tiny rooms to house them, and later the more spacious facilities for the "spa" and Springer's family. A typical stay for the volunteers was a week - but at the time the Springs were closed by the government, two men were hired as caretakers - and both called themselves reformed "winos" who had been there for nearly 20 years.

Springer was a scavenger who bought, or persuaded his faithful listeners to donate, government surplus building supplies, materials from bankrupt building contractors, and items from salvage yards. He replaced the airport limousine with used school buses at some point. When the Springs were shut down, the grounds were still littered with supplies ranging from dozens of porcelain toilets to stacks of rusting plumbing pipe and piles of adobe bricks, while several old school buses were parked haphardly around the grounds.

After a number of "guests" complained about the lack of entertainment or diversions at Zzyzx Springs, Springer installed a shuffleboard court. It became the most popular feature of the site until the shuffleboard sticks wore out and were not replaced. Eventually, Springer had a large pool scraped into the sand in front of the main buildings, then drilled down through the clay layer beneath the desert sands to tap into water from the Mojave River below. The pool quickly filled with the brackish water. A huge whaling dory was dragged in and set at one end of the pool but it was entirely impractical. However, creating the pool produced a surprise - suddenly, there were fish in the water. They turned out to be a species thought long extinct, the Mojave chub, sometimes also called the desert pupfish (see reference on this page).

Besides donations, money to support the project came from sales of various "natural" products. Springer bottled the highly-alkaline water of the Mojave River and sold it as a baldness cure he named "Mor-Hair." He evaporated the water and packaged the salts left behind under the name of "Antediluvian Tea." This product Springer claimed would cure many different ailments - mixed with water or other liquids, it was a rough but effective laxative. Among the charges levied against Springer, but ones he managed to evade, were postal fraud for using the U.S. Mail to fulfill orders for these and other products. "

Stan (talk) 22:04, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

All sorts of information about Springer and his mission/cult/whatever you call it can be found in the book Weird California, by Joe Oesterle and Mike Marinacci. I'd bet some of this unsourced stuff is cut straight from their book... or maybe they have a website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.160.69.186 (talk) 04:58, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

in popular culture
any appearance of the string or variants in the computer or video game industries is likely a coincidental charmingly inverted take on the old hacker nonsense word xyzzy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pseudo Intellectual (talk • contribs) 13:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

PL
And I thought Zzyzx was a suburb of Gdańsk, Poland, like Wrzeszcz. :-)

Sca (talk) 14:29, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

KNBC LOS ANGELES News Clip about Zzyzx & Curtis Springer
https://vimeo.com/51653474 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.141.181 (talk) 04:38, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Lexicography
What does "Word Ways magazine verified the source of the lexicography..." mean; this also needs a source reference. --Macrakis (talk) 14:36, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Zzyzx Rd. (song) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:03, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Population
This is a "community". Does anyone still live here? If so it should say the population somewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:640:4000:a875:34c2:ace5:4e29:923a (talk) 2019-05-07 (UTC)
 * Zzyzx isn't a census-designated place with a boundary, so there's no official census count, but for anyone that's curious: Basically the only activity at Zzyzx is the Desert Studies Center. According to the DSC website, the buildings can accomodate up to 75 people in dorms at once, but only "two long-term researcher residences ... with enough space to accommodate up to five individuals".  And there seem to be a couple of public on-site staff.  So the long-term "resident" population is probably between 1 and 12 at any given time, but that's presuming I didn't miss something.  One helpful article is a 2017 radio segment about the sole resident at the time (who later died in June 2018):  --Closeapple (talk) 07:51, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:51, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Zzyzx Rd.jpg

Undocumented Removal
Editor FlightTime arbitrarily removed the following recent addition (which included a legitimate reference) to the popular culture section, claiming it was not "notable".

"In 2020, the Brazilian psychedelic rock band Os Mutantes released a song and an album named Zzyzx ".
 * 1) The band "Os Mutantes" has a Wikipedia article and so is validly notable. The album cover referenced clearly refers to Zzyzx. This seems to clearly be as notable as the 2 other topics referred to in this section.
 * 2) Is it appropriate Wikipedia behavior to randomly remove things based on an editor's personal opinion without supplying any basis for the removal?

FlightTime suggested that it needed to be discussed on the talk page if I objected. I do object. Finney1234 (talk) 22:17, 30 April 2023 (UTC)


 * It was removed per WP:IPC, which states that "The source of an in-depth popular culture reference does not necessarily have to be notable by Wikipedia's definition, but the more notable the source is, the less likely that its inclusion in a popular culture section is trivial." I restored the other two entries, since both are heavily referenced on their own articles as to their relation to this location. The Os Mutantes reference sadly does not, even Zzyzx (Os Mutantes album) is just a redirect to the group's article. Sadly, without any article or reliable source (discogs is a wiki), it would appear that it does not qualify. If the album or song were notable enough for their own well-referenced article like the others, I wouldn't see any problems with their inclusion. My own opinion, we can see what FlightTime has to say. - Adolphus79 (talk) 23:15, 30 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I as an editor, I felt it is not notable, now when that happens (WP:BRD explains this) a discussion should be started to seek consensus. If other editors, who watch this page agree with your change, then it's in. Community consensus trumps everything, well most everything. Cheers, -  FlightTime  ( open channel ) 23:27, 30 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Adolphus79: I'm glad you added the two popular culture paragraphs back in after they were removed (based on a reference to WP:IPC), but I'm curious about something: Wikipedia articles cannot be validly used as references in a Wikipedia article (WP:Reliable_Sources; see the subsection on "Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources"). Can you point me to any WP documentation that states that having statements like these in an article without explicit references is valid? I would have assumed that a better approach would be to extract the references from the movie articles and place them here.


 * Discogs.com is heavily used as a reference in WP, so I was surprised to see that it's not considered reliable (WP:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources: I think it is pretty reliable, but the user sourcing makes it questionable). I'll go read WP:IPC, but to me, a clearly notable group (Os Mutantes) doing a song on an obscure topic like Zzyzx is worthwhile and interesting information (with respect to Zzyzx and popular culture), even if the song itself isn't "notable".


 * Note that WP:IPC was *not* cited in the removal edit summary of the Os Mutantes song; it would have been helpful if it was. That was why I described it as an arbitrary removal. Finney1234 (talk) 00:32, 1 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Look, I'm not familiar with the band, my concern is, the consensus of the other editors that have this article on their watch. Everyone puts their favorite bands as "notable versions" which (in real life) is hardly the case. As a established editor, I just question the nobility. If page watchers agree, I wouldn't want to stop that. Community consensus agrees, then that's it. Cheers, -  FlightTime  ( open channel ) 00:46, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * FlightTime Obviously, personal opinions are fine. I've never listened to Os Mutantes, but I've heard of them for a decade or two....and I think the long and fairly accurate WP article on them, dating from 2003 and having been edited by 300 people is fairly clearly not a single fan-boy's arbitrary creation.
 * I do apologize for having been a bit irritated in my initial post, but the lack of the WP:IPC citation was the main cause. I have had to deal multiple times with editors who assume their personal opinions classify as WP protocol, and that's how I reacted here.Finney1234 (talk) 01:04, 1 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Personal opinion is not acceptable on Wikipedia. We (as most editors) do not accept personal opinions for subjects we have a "gravitational urge to emboss". simply, I called this one, not saying I'm right, just wanting other watchist users of this page to chime in.  -  FlightTime  ( open channel ) 01:15, 1 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I just want to clarify, I never said the band was not notable (as you said, they have a well-established article), I only opined that without an article or reliable source, you may have trouble gaining consensus on the notability of that specific entry (the song/album being notable enough for inclusion here). Also, as far as Wikipedia articles being used to reference Wikipedia articles, we are not using the articles themselves as sources here (a tag with a Wikipedia article inside as the source), merely linking to the article which is already well ref'd. As for my understanding on discogs (and other wikis in general), please see WP:USERGENERATED. But, as FlightTime already stated, personal opinion is never a replacement for consensus (especially if anyone knows IPC better than I). - Adolphus79 (talk) 02:22, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Request for Comments
Editor FlightTime suggested putting up a discussion on the talk page after I objected to their removal of a "Popular Culture" sentence I had added to the Zzyzx article. This is discussed in the previous section by the three involved editors, but I'm going to repost it separately here. The sentence I added was the following, and the reference was "discogs.com".

"In 2020, the Brazilian psychedelic rock band Os Mutantes released a song and an album named Zzyzx."

Comments/thoughts? Finney1234 (talk) 01:26, 2 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I think that without an article for the song or even the album, or reliable source (not that anyone questions the song is real, but you know, WP:RS n stuff), you may have trouble gaining consensus on inclusion due to WP:IPC... - Adolphus79 (talk) 01:40, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Just FYI, WP:IPC is *not* a Wikipedia standard, it is an essay stating some authors' opinions (look at the header); as such, it is *not* a basis for removing text. And beyond that, it's not clear to me that anything in that essay backs up the removal of the statement I added...for instance, it argues that a song that simply mentions the name of something once should not be included in a popular culture section. But in this case, both the song and the album *title* are "Zzyzx". Finney1234 (talk) 14:27, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I did not say it was policy, but I can make my opinion more concise if necessary... "no article, no RS, no inclusion"... - Adolphus79 (talk) 20:41, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * MOS:POPCULT says Cultural references about a subject should not be included simply because they exist. Schazjmd   (talk)  14:57, 6 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Discogs is not a reliable source, and this RfC requires a secondary source establishing the significance (not just existence) of IPC entries. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:48, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

How to Say It
Can't cite him, but my Step-Dad lived at the Zzyzx research thingy back in the 1970s. Him, and his friends who also work there and visited all say, "Zee Zicks" for the word. Again, not a source that can be used, but it's how it was said by the people who worked and stayed there. 199.127.116.26 (talk) 06:16, 4 July 2024 (UTC)