Template:Did you know nominations/Action Saybusch

Action Saybusch

 * ... that the mass expulsions of Poles (women pictured) known as the Action Saybusch was but a pilot project to be followed by more deportations to General Government that didn't happen?


 * ... that the expulsion of Poles from Silesia in World War II (women pictured) known as the Action Saybusch was meant to be followed by similar displacement actions?


 * ALT1: ... that the Action Saybusch in Silesia (women pictured) was one of many similar expulsions of Polish people by Nazi Germany during World War II?
 * My personal preference. Thanks Piotr. Poeticbent  talk  16:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)


 * ALT2: ... that Action Saybusch was intended to be the first of several German expulsions of Poles from Silesia (women pictured) to the occupied General Government in World War II?
 * Even better. Thanks Sandstein. Poeticbent  talk  15:16, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Mont Aiguille.

Created/expanded by Poeticbent (talk). Self nom at 19:29, 6 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol possible vote.svg An interesting and important article. It meets the formal criteria (length, age...), but I don't think it's ready for the front page.
 * The hook is problematic: it is difficult to understand, does not draw the reader's interest and above all lacks context: it does not make clear that this is about a World War II Nazi atrocity.
 * While not a DYK criterium, the prose quality is inadequate for an article that is to be featured on the front page. The text is replete with spelling errors such as "Ghetoized" or "targetted"; or errors that reflect that English is not the writer's first language, such as "knew Polish" instead of "spoke Polish".
 * All sources but one are not in English, so I cannot readily verify the article's accuracy and neutrality, or the citation of the hook fact. The one English source cited,, does not mention the "Action Saybusch".
 * With respect to plagiarism, it is not clear how much text has been translated (without attribution) from the Polish version. I checked one paragraph, pl:Akcja Saybusch, whose Google translation begins as follows:
 * "Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes Against the Polish Nation at the National Remembrance Institute in Katowice has investigated the Shares. The purpose of the investigation was primarily to collect data and materials and establish the identity of the displaced persons, of whom interviewed a total of 485th (...)"
 * This article's version begins very similarly:
 * "Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes Against the Polish Nation at the Institute of National Remembrance in Katowice has investigated the Action Saybusch in recent years. The purpose of the IPN investigation was primarily to collect data and materials and establish the identity of the displaced persons. The total of 485 living victims have been interviewed. (...)"
 * Overall, this article needs substantial work before it can make a main page appearance.  Sandstein   09:51, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Action Saybusch is a little known event in the English speaking world, that's why the Polish refs are a main source of info (I tried), although they can also be machine-translated to confirm at least the facts, while skipping the grammar. – The first paragraph in the closing section was an unfortunate slip in my narration. I already fixed that. I think I need to stop using Google page-translate for text that requires confirmation. In pl.wiki nothing was supported by references so I copy-pasted that content here and started looking. The Polish wiki followed the source. I think I found it. The attribution goes back to reprint from Trybuna by Malwina Palińska. I included that source in my references, and also rephrased everything else in that paragraph. Thanks again... Looking forward to a go-ahead. Poeticbent talk  16:48, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Sandstein, for such a thorough review. Much appreciated. I fixed the spelling and machine errors. Apparently, I didn't run a spell-checker through the final version before I submitted the article to DYK. Sorry, normally it never happens. – That's why a second pair of eyes is priceless. I italized some of the foreign phrases and refined i-links. I changed the "knew Polish" to "spoke Polish" as suggested, although I do remember wondering whether the soldiers actually spoke Polish (perhaps some), because eye-witness Helena Szatanikowa said, that all of them carried big warrants printed in the Polish language anyways.


 * ALT1: ... that the Action Saybusch in World War II involving expulsions of Poles from Silesia (women pictured) was only a pilot project to be followed by more deportations to General Government?


 * ALT2: ... that the Action Saybusch involving expulsions of Poles from Silesia (women pictured) was part of the Adolf Hitler's master plan known as Lebensraum first tested in the area of Reichsgau Wartheland ?


 * ALT3: ... that the expulsions of Poles (women pictured) from Silesia during Action Saybusch were part of the Adolf Hitler's master plan known as Lebensraum, pretested in the area of Reichsgau Wartheland?


 * The recent edits are clear improvements, although some copyediting remains to be done. E.g., "Polenlagers" should probably be pluralized in German as "Polenlager"; "others were forced to beg" sounds wrong in English as "beg" is a mistranslation of what I assume is the Polish equivalent of the German betteln, i.e., asking strangers for money to support oneself. (Sorry, I can't come up with the correct English translation right now.) Look out for missing "the"s, as in the hook "deportations to the General Government", or in the article "escaping the Soviet front", or "disappointed with the simple wooden cottages". But that is not necessarily a bar for DYK. I would prefer that a second review be carried out by an editor who reads Polish and can evaluate the sources.   Sandstein   17:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * According to source, the phrase "Polenlagers" is already anglicized as plural. BTW, all Definite articles are now fixed. Thanks again. Poeticbent  talk  14:26, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not sure I like ALT1. The expulsions kept happening, only the target changed. I'd suggest rewriting it as "was one of the first", or in a similar fashion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 21:25, 17 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Commenting on alt 2 and 3: Reichsgau Wartheland is not mentioned in article's text, it would have to be fixed. Also, could you cite reference(s) that make that assertion (connecting Lebensraum, Reichsgau Wartheland, and AS being the first test)? Sorry for being difficult here, but DYKs do need to avoid OR. Otherwise we enter into a bad territory of spiraling errors... Here's my simple ALT4 that seems supported by sources.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me  17:17, 18 May 2012 (UTC)


 * ALT2: ... that the Action Saybusch in Silesia (women pictured) was one of many similar expulsions of Polish people during World War II? 


 * To be exact, it says in the article (section "The settlers") that Action Saybusch "was a pilot project meant to be followed by similar actions, but in March 1941 the SS-Obergruppenführer Hans Frank, Governor of General Government, objected to further overcrowding of his district.[1]" The question is whether the phrase "pilot project" is synonymous with the "test project"; anyhow, I like your last ALT also. Poeticbent  talk  23:05, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we can accept the unstriken alt 1 at the top, you should probably ping Sandstein to see if he is ok with it, too. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 19:28, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * As concerns the hook, I think it should have more context for readers unfamiliar with EE/WWII history, like:
 * "... that Action Saybusch was intended to be the first of several German expulsions of Poles from Silesia to the occupied General Government in World War II?". 
 * "Poles" is a common word for the people and probably does not need linking per WP:OVERLINK, like "German". As to formally clearing the article for DYK, I do not have any outstanding objections at this point, but would prefer it if it were to be done by a person who can read the sources.  Sandstein   05:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * We're allowed to assume good faith on foreign sources. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:16, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg The new alt hooks on top seem to be confirmed by sources. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 16:34, 30 May 2012 (UTC)