Template:Did you know nominations/Bali Mauladad


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 21:27, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Bali Mauladad

 * ... that Bali Mauladad (pictured) was accepted as a white hunter even though he was a Kenyan Asian?


 * Reviewed: Cultural competence in health care
 * Comment: Started by a new editor at London Meetup #88

Created by Mauladad (talk), Andrew Davidson (talk). Nominated by Andrew Davidson (talk) at 10:44, 20 December 2014 (UTC).


 * Symbol delete vote.svg The article itself is new enough and long enough. Though the primary reference is an unreliable source, the hook is sourced to a reliable one (a Mansfield News Journal article), which I have confirmed supports the claim.  As for the image, OTRS permission for the original version at File:Bali Iqbal.jpg is still pending, and the image's current licence tag contradicts the information given in the summary.  (That is, the summary template says the copyright holder is a third party, but the licence tag says that the uploader himself is the copyright holder.)  This issue needs to be resolved before the image can be used.  The rest of the sources are not available online, and at least one of them has been copied verbatim, so I cannot take it on good faith that there is no plagiarism from the remainder.   —Psychonaut (talk) 22:47, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg I'm not understanding the detail of these objections — please clarify.  If it helps, perhaps I can explain the history of the photograph.  This was taken by Marion Kaplan - a woman in France who contacted the first author to volunteer the photo.  She is quite willing for photo to be used and has been persuaded to make the OTRS submission but, as this as all been done recently, I suppose that's still pending in a backlog.  The DYK nomination couldn't wait on this because of the 7 day deadline.  I then cropped that original photograph to make the subject more prominent.  The text of the article has all been confirmed online but the books have to be inspected in a fragmentary way if you're using something like Google Books and so are not really suitable for URLs.  If you think something is paraphrased too closely then please give details and I'll rework it. Andrew D. (talk) 23:00, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Regarding the photograph, is Marion Kaplan also the uploader? If not, photo's licence tag must be changed, because currently it wrongly states that the uploader is the copyright holder.  Regarding the article text, this edit copied entire paragraphs, without modification and apparently without permission, from Encounters With Lions by Jan Hemsing.  Given that this apparent copyvio has happened with one source, it's important for us to check for copying from all the other offline sources as well. —Psychonaut (talk) 23:17, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Marion Kaplan is the photographer, but not the uploader. Kaplan is clearly identified as the photographer in both the original file and in the cropped version so I suppose the licence tag should be amended if it's not quite right.  Regarding the diff, this was done by user:Mauladad who has a copy of the book but is a novice editor and so does not fully understand our copyright rules.  She was acting in good faith rather than deceptively as the edit summary was "Added 2 paragraphs from page 118 ewl".  I suggest that that edit be reverted as it was made after my DYK nomination and so is not immediately needed.  All the other text was written by myself or under my direct supervision.  I am a very experienced editor and so took care to attribute a direct quotation properly when this was done originally. Andrew D. (talk) 23:33, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation. If you could fix the image licence tag and follow the copyvio template instructions to produce a version of the article which omits the infringing text, then the issues will be resolved, and maybe this DYK could be revisited. Psychonaut (talk) 11:39, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not touching the page as the tag says "Do not restore or edit the blanked content on this page until the issue is resolved by an administrator, copyright clerk or OTRS agent." Myself, the original author and some admins will be meeting again next Sunday at London Meetup #89 where I expect we will resolve this.  Andrew D. (talk) 16:00, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Did you read the rest of the template? As I mentioned above, it explains how and where to create a non-infringing version of the article.  If you do that and leave a note at its WP:CP entry, the matter could get resolved quite quickly. —Psychonaut (talk) 16:10, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The version of 20 December is non-infringing but I'm not seeing the point of copying this to another page. WP:CP is backlogged, as I understand it, and so until this can be negotiated with an admin, we're stuck. Andrew D. (talk) 18:36, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


 * A proper permissions email has been sent to permissions-commons@wikipedia.org.
 * Geni (who is standing next to me) is saying that it's ok.
 * As soon as OTRS processes it, it should be good to go.Mauladad (talk) 17:43, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The copyright issues were resolved yesterday at the London meetup and so we're good to go again. If any further spot checking is required then the sources include:
 * Encounters with Lions — snippet view on Google Books
 * White Hunters — preview at Google Books
 * Home to Pakistan — snippet view on Google Books
 * Africa Hunting — lots of pictures and anecdotes
 * Andrew D. (talk) 13:26, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Does that mean you're happy to tick ? PanydThe muffin is not subtle 14:28, 25 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I do not see how we can run this on the front page. I see that is willing to accept the hook based on the Mansfield News citation, but the sentence in the article that is supposedly verified is hardly the same as the hook, if only because "accepted as a white hunter" isn't the same as "accepted into a club which ordinarily accepted only white hunters". But beyond that, an article that relies for so much of its sourcing on a forum thread from a website, that can't be right. Plus, I have my doubts about the reliability of the other sources, and I do not believe this will withstand AfD. White Hunters is the best of the sources, and it has a couple of sentences on our subject, and two footnotes. Encounters With Lions by Trophy Room Books--well, we can't search the books, but the publisher strikes me as a fancy vanity press. Then there's the writing. The lead is obviously not neutral, not encyclopedic: I am pretty sure we shouldn't start an article with "Mohamed Iqbal Mauladad was known to all as "Bali"." The sentence "he was entitled as the white hunter" makes no sense, and what the "Shaw and Hunter trophy" is is anyone's guess--it's not verified or even mentioned in the article. I just corrected a page number/added a citation for the shooting brake. Then there's the man's death: supposedly that entire section was (also) sourced to White Hunters, but that cannot be, since all that the book says is "...Iqbal was gored by a buffalo at Kibwezi, Kenya, in 1974 and died from complications shortly afterward". Surely it is striking that this book, likely the best and most reliable of them all, has a different date: 1974. It is certain that the article was written or co-written by someone who knew the man well and thus the 1970 date must be correct--that means that the book must be wrong, and that thus the other information in there is questionable as well. No, this cannot land on the front page, unfortunately. Drmies (talk) 05:44, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg I'll have another go at getting this back on track as the principal editor (user:Mauladad) is a young Asian lady and supporting her efforts is a way of addressing multiple diversity gaps.  She is still quite inexperienced though and so her update to the lead was not quite in our house style.  I noticed this at the time but didn't like to rush in to revert immediately as this seemed too contrary to WP:OWN and WP:BITE.  Now, about the year of death.  I noticed the discrepancy in the sources in earlier work.  The best source for this seemed to be the Kenya Gazette which posted a legal notice about his estate.  It's not unusual for there to be some discrepancies in the sources about key dates.  For example, when Lynsey de Paul died, we had a fine old time sorting out her birth date because most of the mainstream media got this wrong and even the official records got her name wrong too.  And even Jimmy Wales famously disputes the date of his own birthday!  Such minutiae bedevil most articles but, at DYK, we are dealing with new work and the focus of our fact-checking should be the hook.  I'm thinking that newspaper archives will give us more good evidence so I'll try those.  In the meantime, for interest, folks might like to view this newsreel which I just found, which shows the subject competing in the East African Safari rally.  The subject's placing is given in the commentary, about 1 minute in, and he appears on camera twice.  Andrew D. (talk) 08:38, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I do not think that the reliability of sourcing and the notability of subjects are minutia, but your mileage varies, of course. I am not aware that we accept legal notices--it strikes me as primary, and that the Kenya Gazette publishes it doesn't mean the Kenya Gazette exercises editorial control over it; really, they may have posted it, but that's truly in a newspaper's role as a medium, an in-between, which simply prints what it is offered. Drmies (talk) 16:29, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I've gotten back to this and given it a spring-clean to move it forward. The death date reported in the Kenya Gazette comes from the Kenyan High Court, which seems to be an impeccable source. A quote and URL have been added to help people verify this. I found a good newspaper cutting which has a detailed account of the subject winning the safari industry's most prestigious annual award - the Shaw and Hunter trophy. I have added material from this. I have also rewritten the lead to improve it. I have more to add but it already seems ready for a fresh look, please. Andrew D. (talk) 11:19, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg New enough, long enough, no copyvios; I've confirmed the references in detail (and added some); here are some possible alternative hooks, since there is disagreement over the language of the first one proposed. Someone else should review following my changes. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 12:58, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


 * ALT1... that Bali Mauladad (pictured) raced over 3,000 miles in a Humber Super Snipe to place 4th in the Safari Rally?
 * ALT2... that big-game hunter Bali Mauladad (pictured) won the Shaw & Hunter trophy not for an elephant, but for a tiny Oribi antelope?


 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg It was new enough when nominated. It is long enough. It is copyvio free. It is mostly neutrally written; occasional peacockish language, not serious enough to hold it up (I would fix it, but I don't want to ask for still another reviewer, so close to the finish line). It is mostly well cited; the cite issues are not, IMO, serious enough to hold it up; primarily the use of youtube as a source, which does not meet the RS guidelines. This eliminates hook 1. These have been checked, but anyhow; image is free use, and QPQ is done Hook 2 has sources, and I like the thrust of it; however, it is a little confusing, and not strictly what the sources say, because he did not kill the antelope; he led a client to kill it. Therefore, I propose ALT3 below. I have made no edits to the article, so this just requires somebody to verify the citation of the hook. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:57, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * ALT3... that big-game hunter Bali Mauladad (pictured) won the Shaw & Hunter trophy for leading a client to a tiny Oribi antelope?


 * Symbol confirmed.svg Checked references for ALT3, looks ok. Previous reviewers have checked other aspects. Struck previous hooks. Zeete (talk) 12:31, 31 March 2015 (UTC)