Template:Did you know nominations/Balinese traditional house


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by BlueMoonset (talk) 06:21, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Close paraphrasing remains a problem after several reviews and corrections and rewrites over a period of seven weeks.

Balinese traditional house

 * ... that the Balinese traditional house follows a strict ancient architectural guide which is a product of a blend of Hindu and Buddhist beliefs, fused with Austronesian animism?


 * ALT1:... that the house gate of a Balinese traditional house is symbolically identified with the anus?
 * Reviewed: Civility
 * Reviewed: Civility

Created by Rochelimit (talk). Self-nominated at 15:36, 2 November 2015 (UTC).


 * Symbol question.svg This article is new enough and long enough. Either hook could be used as both have inline citations. The article is neutral. My only reservation is whether the article is a copyright violation of the two-page, main source Gunawan Tjahjono. The article was written offline and seems so accurately written with such precision as to arouse my suspicion, whereas the final section "Modernization", which has an Indonesian source, is in a different, less precise style. Would you have access to the main source? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:03, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * On further inspection, I see that the nominator includes copyright violations in other articles such as Fort Oranje (Ternate), parts of which are copied directly from this source. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:24, 18 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I did cited this source clearly in the reference of Fort Oranje (Ternate). True however there is one very similar sentence taken from that source: "In 1599 two Dutch ships under the command of Wybrand van Warwijck arrived in Ternate" and that's it. I rewrote that part to make sure no sentence is exactly similar with the reference: (changed into "In 1599 two Dutch ships led by Commander Wybrand van Warwijck arrived in Ternate")
 * As for Balinese traditional house, I assure you that they are not copied thoroughly as there is actually very little information from the main source Gunawan Tjahjono, especially regarding the Balinese terminology such as tugu, bale, etc. So to cope with that, I used other sources to "complete" the explanation from Gunawan Tjahjono, For example: the names of the bales from the source Gunawan are very limited in its explanation. So I used another sources to reexplain the Balinese terminology more clearly. While searching for other names, I found out that the names of the bale differ source by source. Finally I concluded that the bale actually has two names: directional name, and the number of post name. So I explained this thoroughly in this article, each bale has two names. None of these are explained in the source Gunawan. So yes, I can ensure you that those have been rewrote and not taken directly from Gunawan. Is this clear enough?
 * This article I've created with utmost care, I even recreated the diagram of Balinese House from scratch, which took me a week to finish in-between my busy schedule.--Rochelimit (talk) 05:29, 23 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The example you quote in your first paragraph above is called "close-paraphrasing" and is not allowed in Wikipedia, see this page. I can't check Balinese traditional house but in Fort Oranje (Ternate), one of many offending sentences is:


 * Source: On February 17, 1613, when Pieter Both was appointed the first Governor-General of the VOC, the Decision Letter on February 17, 1613, the Board of Commissioners Heren Zeventien in the Netherlands set the Maluku region as a center of VOC official position and the town of Ternate and Ambon (Amboina) becomes choice of the official residence of the Governor-General.
 * Article: On February 17, 1613, when Pieter Both was appointed the first Governor-General of the Dutch East Indies, the Decision Letter on February 17, 1613, the Board of Commissioners Heren XVII in the Netherlands set the Maluku region as a center of VOC official position and town of Ternate and Ambon were chosen as the official residence of the Governor-General.

I am asking Nikkimaria to have a look as I think this is a bad case of close paraphrasing, and the article has other similar examples as shown by this duplicate detector check, which makes me think you offend in this way often. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:51, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Oops my bad. let me check that article. Thanks for the check tools, it's really helpful. About Balinese traditional house, you can ask people to check. Hopefully I'm assuring you correctly for that one; I've been checking it quiet a while.--Rochelimit (talk) 08:56, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I've noticed that some of the "close paraphrasing" are actually small. The page did mention that all similarities does not necessarily indicate copying has not occurred. I am fixing some sentences anyway. Anyway this is a really helpful link.--Rochelimit (talk) 09:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree that there are significant paraphrasing issues in this article. Rochelimit, as you note the tool does mention that it has limitations - it's always best to check manually as well, to avoid both false negative and false positive results. For example, "to be completed with one or more additional uses of a toilet, additional side doors, additional side glass-windows, as well as a modern working space and a room for watching television" is not identical to "a Bale Daja has been completed with one or more additional uses of a toilet, a modern working space, and a room dedicated for watching television" from the source and so may or may not be flagged by a copyvio tool, but it's still not appropriately paraphrased. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:37, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * That part has more to do with additional architectural elements instead of additional modern room. So a wing dedicated to a toilet, conversion from lattice to glass windows, and additional side door are the main point. I just rewrote that part if that's what you want?--Rochelimit (talk) 01:47, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
 * But that is only one example of a problem - you really need to go through the article, go through the sources, and see when the phrasing of the two are too close. Another example is "The family shrine contains a number of different shrines dedicated to both the gods and to family ancestors. The most prominent of the shrines is the sanggah kemulan, placed on the kaja-kangin corner of the family shrine. The sanggah kemulan is a small, wooden, house-like construction raised on pillars and standing on a sandstone or brick column. Structurally, the sanggah kemulan is divided into three compartments dedicated to the Hindu trimurti of Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu. Brahma is associated with the male ancestors of the household, while Vishnu with the female ancestors. A Balinese man should build one of these shrines when he marries". The source says "The family temple contains a number of different shrines dedicated to both the gods and to family ancestors. The most prominent of the shrines is the sanggah kemulan, a small, wooden, house-like construction raised on pillars and standing on a sandstone or brick column. This structure is divided into three compartments, dedicated to the Hindu triumvirate (trimurti) of Brahma, Siwa and Wisnu. Brahma is associated with the male ancestors of the household, while Wisnu is identified with the female ancestors. A Balinese man should build one of these shrines when he marries." As you can see from the italics, most of this paragraph is identical. This is a significant problem. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:59, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I've checked possible close paraphrasing, hopefully it's fixed now.--Rochelimit (talk) 02:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I would really suggest you go through all of the sources carefully, as problems remain. Another example: "The pavilions are placed on a low plinth and most of them are surmounted by a hipped roof clad with clay pantiles or grass thatch" vs "Each building is placed on a low plinth and surmounted by a hipped roof clad with clay pantiles or grass thatch" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikkimaria (talk • contribs) 03:45, 11 December 2015‎ (UTC)
 * Checked that as well.--Rochelimit (talk) 11:45, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Again, I have to emphasize that I am only pulling out examples, not doing a comprehensive check - I'm still finding issues on rechecking. Another example: "An offering platform is attached near the top of this post, and the erection of the rest of the posts is determined by the law of clockwise direction, an idea found all over Indonesia" vs "An offering platform is attached near the top of this post, and the erection of the rest of the posts is determined by the law of "movement to the right", an idea found all over Indonesia". Nikkimaria (talk) 02:36, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I've rewrote most parts of the article.--Rochelimit (talk) 13:49, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * "Balinese people classify the pavilions according to the number of posts used in their construction. Pavilion that employs four posts to support the roof is called bale sakepat (literally "four post pavilion"), with six roof is known as bale sakenam ("six post pavilion"), and so on" vs "Each structure is classified according to the number of posts used in its construction. A structure that employs four posts to support the roof is called bale sakepat (bale = pavilion, sakasa = post, empat = four), a bale sakenam is a six-post structure (enam = six), and so on". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikkimaria (talk • contribs) 23:26, 27 December 2015‎ (UTC)
 * Sorry for some reason edit is not visible through the talk page of the Balinese article. I think that section is too specific to not being similar but I've rewrote that section entirely from scratch, hopefully it's okay.--Rochelimit (talk) 11:38, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Symbol delete vote.svg I'm sorry, but I'm still finding problems here: "These dimensions are recorded on a length of bamboo which serves as a yard-stick for laying out the complex" is almost identical to "These dimensions are recorded on a length of bamboo, which serves as a kind of yardstick for laying out the compound". I'm also concerned that the source being copied is not the one being cited for that sentence. I really think you need to go through the whole article carefully and compare it with all of its sources. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:47, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The source being copied is the one cited for that sentence. If you are saying that the writing is completely the same, then I guess my source copied exactly the same sentence from the source you've checked; or the other way. Anyway I rewrote that part with a completely new wording. Hopefully I'm not messing any information. I'm truly regretting the decision of "close-paraphrasing" because that is not the case.--Rochelimit (talk) 09:36, 16 January 2016 (UTC)