Template:Did you know nominations/Beilin-Abu Mazen agreement

Beilin-Abu Mazen agreement
Created/expanded by Futurist110 (talk). Self nom at 07:02, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * ... that the Beilin-Abu Mazen agreement was one of the first proposals for a final peace treaty between Israel and the Palestinians on which negotiators from both sides worked together?


 * Symbol delete vote.svg No inline references. In fact, no references at all, besides an unformatted external link to the source text. Needs proper referencing and copyediting before it can be considered for a DYK. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 20:53, 25 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I and another user added some inline references now. Futurist110 (talk) 06:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Better now but has two bare references. The hook doesn't seem to occur in the article though. Secretlondon (talk) 17:11, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've added some more refs and will work on it more when I get a chance and finish working on some other projects. But it certainly wasn't the most prominent Israeli-Palestinian peace proposal in the 1990's. I'd say Oslo Accords was much more prominent, Beilin-Abu Mazen agreement was never even signed and was pretty much created by only one side with the other merely glancing over it. The article doesn't point to where this statement comes from, and doesn't mention it at all, so if it is true, it should be in the article with a proper reference. Thanks. -- Activism  1234  17:33, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * By peace proposal, I meant final peace treaty, not an interim peace agreement like Oslo. I got the impression that the Beilin-Abu Mazen agreement was talked about a lot between 1995 and 1999/2000, much more than any other final peace treaty during this time period. If you need a better hook, one can write that "Did you know that the Beilin-Abu Mazen agreement was one of the first proposals for a final peace treaty between Israel and the Palestinians on which negotiators from both sides worked together?" Futurist110 (talk) 20:17, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that the above is much better, and I'd approve such an alt1. Please ping me on talk once it is proposed as an alt; please note that as far as I can tell the alt proposed above is not mentioned in the article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:34, 30 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah but impressions would need to be proved, as I'm not sure that is the case. -- Activism  1234  20:55, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * If you would compare the mentions of Beilin-Abu Mazen and other final peace proposals between 1995 and 1999 (on Google News Archive, for instance), you'd see much more mentions of Beilin-Abu Mazen than mentions of other final peace proposals. Perhaps there are websites that compare the number of mentions that particular terms have in the media during certain time periods. As for my last statement, I did not hear of any other final peace proposals that Israeli and Palestinian negotiators worked on together before 1995. Maybe there were some, but there certainly wasn't many of them. Futurist110 (talk) 05:21, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's how it works though. You'd need to be able to conclusively prove within the articles with reliable references which view it as such. Otherwise, it's WP:OR. -- Activism  1234  13:15, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I have now fixed my hook. Futurist110 (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's better [although some people may mention that it was more of work on the Israeli side and Abu Mazen just really looked it over and didn't sign it.] -- Activism  1234  13:16, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * http://www.mideastweb.org/beilinabumazen1.htm - This site that says Israeli and Palestinian negotiators worked on this proposal together. Futurist110 (talk) 02:18, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It doesn't look like a WP:RS though. -- Activism  1234  03:22, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * http://forward.com/articles/118774/missing-the-abu-mazen-opportunity/ - Would this reference work better? Futurist110 (talk) 11:16, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * While normally I'd say an article by The Forward is fine (although not my type of media outlet), what you're linking to is an opinion piece, and are generally not accepted on Wikipedia. However, re-reading this, it seems like we're just trying to prove that Israeli & Palestinian negotiators worked on it together, so I'd say that all that is ncessary for this would be proof from the article itself that you created.  The only dispute would be concerning whether or not Abbas actually worked together, or just quickly signed it. -- Activism  1234  16:09, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This piece by The Forward was written by Yossi Beilin, one of the chief Israeli negotiators during the 1990s. If this doesn't work, I can change the hook to "Did you know that the Beilin-Abu Mazen agreement proposed temporarily solving the dispute over Jerusalem by creating a provisional Palestinian capital in a Jerusalem suburb called Abu Dis?" Also, this is off-topic, but I finally got a chance to respond to your e-mail (the one that you sent me a week or two ago). Futurist110 (talk) 07:02, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah didn't notice that. I guess that could work.  And if not, I would definitely be in favor of the second one, which personally I feel would have more of a chance of passing through.  -- Activism  1234  02:13, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah I think that the word of a former Israeli negotiator would hold much more value than that of a regular opinion journalist. Anyway, how do I get this template finally nominated? I PMed Piotrus right now but he still didn't respond to me (at least, not yet). Futurist110 (talk) 03:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well firstly, if you want to change the hook to the second one, you should do that now. If not, don't.  Anyway, just give him some time to get the message and then reply here.  Should get a response within the day. These DYK nominations can take some time.  I submitted a DYK a few days ago, and it hasn't been reviewed yet, but this should be relatively quick. -- Activism  1234  03:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that the first hook is fine for now. If not, I'll then immediately change it to the second one. The first hook seems more historic, which is why I'm staying with it for now. Futurist110 (talk) 06:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Is someone going to review this article? Futurist110 (talk) 06:39, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

First hook missing a ref for the claim "first". Second hook only suggested, not proposed. I'll review it when I see it properly worded as alt1. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 22:06, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * ALT1 ... that the Beilin-Abu Mazen agreement was the one of the first peace agreements on which Israeli and Palestinian negotiators worked together? Futurist110 (talk) 00:41, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * ALT2 ... that the Beilin-Abu Mazen agreement proposed temporarily resolving the dispute over the status of Jerusalem by creating a provisional Palestinian capital in Abu Dis? Futurist110 (talk) 00:41, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I hate to be difficult, but the first one fails due to the cite needed tag, and the second one is based on an unreferenced sentence, and not fully correct (the proposal had more than the capital in Abu Dis stipulation). I strongly suggest that you provide a reference for the "first" claim, the first hook is more interesting, and the article cannot be DYKed anyway until the citation needed claim is referenced or removed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 00:48, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, after analyzing it over, my first alternative proposal is unfortunately original research, which is against Wikipedia policy. The second one does have a source at the end of the paragraph. I put the source at the end of the paragraph because the entire paragraph had the same source. What exactly is wrong with my statement, though?--the agreement did propose a provisional Palestinian capital in Abu Dis. Anyway, here is a third proposal. Hopefully this one will work:
 * ALT3 ... that the Beilin-Abu Mazen agreement was written by Yossi Beilin and Mahmoud Abbas (also known as Abu Mazen) in 1995 in an attempt to write an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty (or peace treaty draft)? Futurist110 (talk) 00:57, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Either peace treaty or peace treaty draft are fine with me. And don't worry about being difficult. I totally understand that this process needs to be extensive. Futurist110 (talk) 00:57, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * We can go with slightly modified ALT3, I made some adjustments for style. If you like it, I'll mark it as good to go.
 * ALT4 ... that the Beilin-Abu Mazen agreement was a proposed Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty created by Yossi Beilin and Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) in 1995?
 * --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 01:04, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I like ALT4 and if you want to use it, then I'm totally cool with it. Futurist110 (talk) 01:07, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg We are good to go. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 01:38, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol possible vote.svg Close paraphrasing concerns. Compare for example "Although the proposal was never adopted, the ideas expressed in them, particularly in regard to the establishment of a Palestinian capital in a suburb of Jerusalem known as Abu Dis, have often been cited as potential solutions to some of the current issues in the Arab-Israeli conflict" with "Thou this agreement was neverly formally adopted by either Israel or the Palestinians, the ideas expressed, particularly with regard to establishing the capital of a future Palestinan state in a suburb of Jerusalem known as Abu Dis, have often been cited as potential solutions to some of the outstanding issues". Nikkimaria (talk) 02:53, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I fixed that sentence that you pasted here. Are there any more similar concerns over this? Futurist110 (talk) 06:01, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. A further example is "negotiators familiar with the thinking of the Palestinian side admitted that they never agreed to accept Abu Dis as an alternative to Jeruaslem, but rather viewed it as a "launching pad" from which to acquire influence over East Jerusalem before a future peace deal" vs "negotiators familiar with the thinking of the Palestinian side admitted that they never agreed to accept Abu Dis as a substitute to Jerusalem, but rather saw it as a launching pad for acquiring influence in East Jerusalem prior to future negotiations". A second occurrence of near-verbatim copying is very concerning and suggests that a thorough check is needed here. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:10, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I fixed that part as well. If you want to do a thorough check, go ahead, but for the record, I did not write everything in this article myself (I merely wrote most of the stuff in this article). Futurist110 (talk) 02:58, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay. FN11 could be better rewritten, but I think the only major remaining issue is FN10. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:02, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I fixed FN10 and FN11 (if you're talking about the references and the info provided from them) to the best of my ability without distorting the meaning of the info presented there. If you think that they can be rewritten even better, you can go ahead and try rewriting them, but I honestly think that they're good the way they are right now. Thank you. Futurist110 (talk) 07:21, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg Well, not great, but good enough. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:57, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. I'm assuming that this article is good to go right now. Futurist110 (talk) 03:07, 5 September 2012 (UTC)