Template:Did you know nominations/Biker bar

Biker bar

 * ... that The Full Throttle Saloon in Sturgis, South Dakota has been described as the world's largest biker bar?
 * Reviewed: Musikhjälpen

Created by Northamerica1000 (talk). Self nominated at 00:54, 1 January 2014 (UTC).


 * New; length OK and citations generally good; but all three for the hook seem to be promo for a TV series featuring its subject and thus derived from self-published PR. Prefer a more generic hook, not mentioning Sturgis. [New reviewer inviting further comment] Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi User:Pigsonthewing: I disagree with having a "generic" hook. Hooks are supposed to be intriguing, rather than generic, (or boring). I also disagree with omitting information about Sturgis, South Dakota from the hook; the bar is in Sturgis, after all. Furthermore, the hook is well-sourced, is not PR-based, and the sources are not all "self-published". For an example of sourcing in reliable sources, see:
 * Sorry, but your criteria here seems to be too subjective, rather than based upon the DYK rules. Also, it's preferred to provide an ALT hook if you disagree, rather than just say "no." Northamerica1000(talk) 18:00, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but your criteria here seems to be too subjective, rather than based upon the DYK rules. Also, it's preferred to provide an ALT hook if you disagree, rather than just say "no." Northamerica1000(talk) 18:00, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Second opinion: The technical details all check out OK, but I think that Andy has a point; this article is about biker bars, I thought it was about the Full Throttle Saloon the way the hook was phrased. That said, the link and nod to Sturgis is acceptable, as that town is motorcycle rally central for the USA.  So, to keep it punchy, but clearer may I propose the following ALT1?  Montanabw (talk) 05:13, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

ALT1:
 * ... that the largest biker bar in the world is located in Sturgis, South Dakota?
 * ALT1 works fine for me. Thanks for the input, and Happy New Year. Northamerica1000(talk) 09:53, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. I did look at the sources again more closely and the Dyerburg article suggests that the bar only operates in Sturgis part of the year the futoncritic site says it's only open two weeks? , IMHO the sources ARE press releases, but I think of adequate reliability for a DYK, particularly if the hook is reworded to be even closer to what they actually say. I'm wondering if we could reword the hook further to not be misleading... To avoid dragging yet a third reviewer into this, could you live with:

ALT2:
 * ... that a biker bar claiming to be the largest in the world opens for only two weeks a year in Sturgis, South Dakota?

Thoughts? Montanabw (talk) 20:33, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * ALT2 is fine by me . Concise, interesting and useful. Hooks about "largest in the world" things tend to be functional for DYKs on main page. Also, since the bar name isn't stated, it hopefully creates intrigue to read more about it. Northamerica1000(talk) 22:54, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Sidenote: I have to disagree with the notion (above) that the Dyersburg State Gazette article is a "press release", because it simply is not. It's an in-depth article and interview in a bylined news article from a reliable source. Northamerica1000(talk) 22:54, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm happy with the DYK for ALT2 then also, Andy, over to you if you want to issue the final approval (I can't, I drafted the ALT hooks). I think that the sources are good enough for approval also.   Montanabw (talk) 22:21, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg Any progress here? Time for re-review, please?  Andy? --PFHLai (talk) 04:45, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Symbol question.svg If ALT2 is to be used, the article needs to state that the bar only opens for two weeks a year. However, considering that the sources are conflicted (the Dyersburg Gazette says nine days), it's best not to use this fact as a hook unless the confusion can be resolved. Also, can you explain to me the significance of the listed biker bars? I assume the list isn't intended to be exhaustive (one source discusses five bars in Orange County, but only one of them is mentioned in the article), so what's the selection criteria? DoctorKubla (talk) 11:45, 1 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment - Perhaps the original hook I wrote would work out better.

... that The Full Throttle Saloon in Sturgis, South Dakota has been described as the world's largest biker bar?


 * There's no confusion in the original hook; it's very straightforward and unambiguous. Regarding specifics of list inclusion criteria within the article, I feel that a discussion on the article's talk page would be more functional compared to here, which is focused upon DYK eligibility. Northamerica1000(talk) 12:15, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, I take your point about keeping the discussion focused. My problem with the original hook is that, as the other two reviewers pointed out, Full Throttle has only "been described" as the world's largest biker bar by self-published promo material, and one local paper which, it's reasonable to assume, just took Ballard's word for it. We can run with that hook if it's tweaked to make clear that it's the bar itself that's making the claim. DoctorKubla (talk) 13:46, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This article from Dyersburg State Gazette is an independent, reliable source that qualifies the original hook in entirety. The source is making the claim in this instance. Just to be very clear regarding this matter, this bylined article from a reputable newspaper is most certainly not "self-published promo material", and it's quite overly assumptive to declare that the author of the article took an interviewees "word for it". Wikipedia content is based upon reliable sources, rather than user opinion and theories about how an author may or may not have taken someone's "word for it" prior to writing an article that is published in a reliable source. There's no problem in the sourcing here. It appears that some users may not have read all of the sources in entirety, or assumed "promo" from the start without considering the reliability of sources. Additionally, it would be synthesis to "run with that hook if it's tweaked to make clear that it's the bar itself that's making the claim", because the fact is stated directly by a reputable, reliable source, and to state otherwise would be quite inaccurate. This entry has been good-to-go from the start. Northamerica1000(talk) 14:58, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I just don't think the Gazette can be called an independent source; it's clearly promoting a "local entrepreneur" and his new TV show. Rather than arguing with every reviewer who makes this point, wouldn't it be easier to just accept the consensus and agree to compromise? DoctorKubla (talk) 19:30, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Not "arguing", but Dyersburg State Gazette is a daily newspaper that has been published since 1865. It's absolutely an independent, reliable source. Additionally, the following sources also state it as fact, and support the original hook:
 * Boston Herald
 * The Australian.
 * Perhaps a new alt3 would be in order? Northamerica1000(talk) 23:20, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Upon consideration of more sources, some of which state that the bar makes the claim (e.g., ), while others state it as a fact (e.g. , ), (the latter of which also supports original hook), how about the following ALTs below? Northamerica1000(talk) 00:13, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

ALT3: Or ALT4:
 * ... that the Full Throttle Saloon in Sturgis, South Dakota claims to be the world's largest biker bar?
 * ... that is has been claimed the Full Throttle Saloon in Sturgis, South Dakota is the world's largest biker bar?


 * Symbol confirmed.svg ALT3's fine with me; I've struck the others for clarity. Sorry for being so difficult :) DoctorKubla (talk) 07:56, 2 February 2014 (UTC)