Template:Did you know nominations/Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception (Albany, New York)

Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception (Albany, New York)

 * ... that Albany's Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception (pictured) is the oldest Neo-Gothic cathedral in the U.S., second oldest overall in New York and third oldest nationally?
 * ALT1:... that in 1986 Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception (pictured) in Albany, New York, hosted the first-ever Palm Sunday reconciliation service between Christians and Jews?
 * ALT2:... that, before its recent restoration, one of the roof leaks at Albany's Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception (pictured) formed a 62 ft icicle inside the building every winter?
 * Reviewed: College Network, Inc. v. Moore Educational Publishers, Inc.
 * Comment: Sorry for the delay in nominating this ... I did not want to do so until I had not only expanded the article to a sufficient length but had gotten the sources to support all the proposed hooks adequately cited (This is an actual demonstration of why I have advocated for a longer nomination period ... it would have been impossible to get this done and have something we wouldn't be embarrassed by). Daniel Case (talk) 16:55, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Created/expanded by Daniel Case (talk). Self nom at 18:15, 17 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol delete vote.svg The expansion of this article to the required length took longer than five days. Neelix (talk) 00:32, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Symbol question.svg It is very easy to look for an article to review, find one that doesn't meet the 5-day window, and nix it. But knowing Daniel Case and the quality of his work, this article deserves to be looked at first. The copy was expanded 5x in a 9-day window, to over 21,000 characters, with sourcing of each and every detail. I advocate for the acceptance of this article per Rules D9 and D13.
 * Towards approval, I would like to ask the page creator to do a bit more tweaking of the description under Exterior and Interior, taken from the National Register of Historic Places Inventory/Nomination. While the architectural terms are not copyrighted, the writing closely paraphrases the NRHP text on pp. 5–6 and follows it sentence by sentence. Yoninah (talk) 21:59, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the understanding regarding the late submission. However, I'm not quite sure how you get to this "sentence by sentence". I took pains, as I always do, to not slavishly copy the original text, but the fact is that there are only so many ways you can say this. It's pretty standard in writing about architecture to use common terms within that field for design elements; it's pretty standard, as well as eminently logical, to do things like describe a building's walls, then move on to its roof. It's a bit harder with this one, because unlike most NRHP noms from that era it actually follows that sort of logical progression in its description (although its description of the interior is perfunctory enough that I had to supplement it with other sources). While I don't see any instances where I might have been slipshod, at least on an initial review, I have no problem admitting I'm not perfect and, if you can indicate a specific passage where you think I could paraphrase less superficially, please do. Daniel Case (talk) 03:32, 23 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I am concerned that, aside from the design elements, the administrators might consider the following sentence structure as close paraphrasing:


 * Your text: On the east (front) facade are three portals with crocketed gables, divided by four miniature buttresses with crocketed pinnacles. Two larger buttresses, similarly treated, rise to roof level on either side. A large Gothic tracery window is above them, topped by a small recessed quatrefoil window in the gable apex. At the roofline is a pierced tracery parapet. There are small arched tracery windows in the facade's flanks.
 * NRHP text: The facade has three central portals which are topped by crocketed gables and flanked by four miniature buttresses with small crocketed pinnacles. Two large buttresses flank the doorways and rise the full height of the roof where they are topped with crocketed pinnacles. Above the doorways is a large Gothic tracery window and above that in the point of the gable, a small quatrefoil window. The roof line is decorated with a pierced tracery parapet. Flanking the central portion of the facade are small arched tracery windows which are partially obscured by the massive buttressing of both the central facade and the towers.


 * Your text: The towers rise four and a half stories to their spires. At the base they are supported by double-angled buttresses on their corners topped with crocketed pinnacles three stories above. The first two stories have paired windows topped by a small quatrefoil under a pointed dripstone. At the third story this pattern changes to double windows under cusped arches topped by a crocketed ogee arch, above which is a line of plain corbels. The fourth story windows, surrounding the belfry, consist of three narrow louvered arches with a cusped dripstone and gable. On the north tower the top half-story is faced on all sides with a clock while a sexfoil window occupies that position to the south. From a castellated base rise the spires, pierced by small narrow gabled dormers just above the base. Rows of vertical crocketing decorate the section lines.
 * NRHP text: The twin towers have double angled buttresses at their corners and rise four and a half stories to culminate in spires. Their windows have an interesting rhythmic sequence. The first two stories have paired windows topped by a quatrefoil light and are united under a pointed dripstone. The third story of the tower has double lights with cusped arches each topped by crocketed ogee arches with elaborate caps, above which is some rather plain corbeling. The fourth story, which contains the belfry, has three narrow openings with cusped arches each topped by a cusped dripstone and gable. The half story above contains a sexfoil on the south tower and a clock on the north. Above a castellated base rise the spires, decorated with small gables and vertical rows of delicate crocketing.


 * Your text: The main doors open into a full-width vestibule with flat-beamed ceiling. From it doorways go to the towers and the three aisles of the sanctuary.
 * NRHP text: The main doors of the cathedral lead into a vestibule with flat beamed ceilings which runs the width of the church, with doors entering into the tower rooms and into each of three aisles.


 * Your text: The vaulted ceiling is supported by clustered engaged columns with heavy capitals decorated with organic motifs. Among them are many grapes and grape leaves, a particularly Romanesque touch.
 * NRHP text: Each column is a series of clustered engaged columns united by heavy capitals which emphasize swirling organic forms and recall Romanesque motifs, especially in the extensive use of grapes and grape leaves as a decorative element.
 * Yoninah (talk) 22:51, 24 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't find these particularly persuasive as examples of close paraphrasing because we are essentially dealling with a list of descriptive elements. Lists of things cannot really be copyrighted because they are simply facts; only the expression of facts can be copyrighted. If one removes all the purely descriptive elements from these passages, I don't think much would remain, let alone much that might be described as original expression. Perhaps the very last example could be rephrased a little, other than that I don't see a lot to be concerned about here. Gatoclass (talk) 17:28, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I might just add that one way to get around this kind of problem is simply to quote directly from the source, which renders any potential charge of plagiarism redundant. Gatoclass (talk) 17:33, 26 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol confirmed.svg OK, I'm in agreement then. The article is new enough, long enough, well-referenced, no close paraphrasing seen. I think ALT1 or ALT2 are the catchiest hooks; both hook refs are verified. Good to go. Yoninah (talk) 20:19, 26 November 2012 (UTC)