Template:Did you know nominations/Criterion Restaurant

Criterion Restaurant

 * ... that Dr. Watson was first told about Sherlock Holmes in the bar of the Criterion Restaurant (pictured)?
 * Reviewed: Sutton High Street, National Express route A3
 * Comment: 5x expansion started on 11 Jan. More to do.

5x expanded by User:Andrew Davidson (talk). Self nominated at 00:15, 17 January 2014 (UTC).


 * Symbol confirmed.svg Good to go: length and date fine; within relevant policy; QPQ and image check out; hook is correctly formatted and quite interesting (I would suggest something like
 * ALT1: ... that in Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes series, Dr. Watson was first told about Holmes in the bar of the Criterion Restaurant (pictured)?
 * to show that it is a fictional character.) Regards,&#32;~HueSatLum 01:34, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've struck the original hook as it is not in accordance with the rule that states "If the subject is a work of fiction or a fictional character, the hook must involve the real world in some way." Note: if the image is not used, I would recommend replacing "the bar of the Criterion Restaurant" with "the Criterion Bar". M AN d ARAX  •  XAЯA b ИA M  08:54, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
 * If you're wanting to change the hook, you should please notify the nominator. The rule above does not seem to apply because the subject here is not a work of fiction; it's a restaurant in the real world.  And, in any case, Holmes and Watson are so famous they they need no introduction.  Adding the author's name seems to overload the hook with unnecessary detail so I suggest:
 * ALT2: ... that in the first Sherlock Holmes story, his partnership with Dr Watson starts at the Criterion Restaurant (pictured)?
 * The above comment was added by Andrew Davidson after promotion. The rule applies because the subject of the hook was Watson. Also, hooks are constantly being modified, and thus nominators are almost never notified, especially when the essential fact is not changed. M AN d ARAX  •  XAЯA b ИA M  17:39, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The word subject in that rule means the subject of the article, not the grammatical subject of the hook sentence. And the rule doesn't apply regardless because the Criterion exists in the real world and so the original hook involved the real world in some way.  So that's two reasons that the rule doesn't apply.  If the real objection is to avoid the concern that people might think Dr Watson and Sherlock Holmes are real people then this is avoided in ALT2 by using the word story.  We shouldn't drag Arthur Conan Doyle into this as it burdens the hook with too many distracting links. Andrew (talk) 23:05, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
 * BTW, I'm still on the trail of the commemorative plaque for the event described in the hook. The original was placed in the 50s and then stolen in the 60s.  I now find that it was recently replaced and so, if it's still there tomorrow, I'll be taking a picture of it to add to the article. Andrew (talk) 23:20, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The rule appears under the heading "The hook", and, as I said, the word "subject" refers to the subject of the hook, not necessarily of the article; these are usually the same, but not always, as in this case, where the subject of the hook was Watson. For example, Grover's Mill, New Jersey mentions that it was the setting for a Martian invasion in the radio broadcast of The War of the Worlds. By your reasoning, a hook which says "... that Martians invaded Grover's Mill?" would be okay because Grover's Mill exists in the real world, so the hook involves the real world in some way. Of course, none of this matters here since it's already been promoted, but I'm just mentioning it for future reference. M AN d ARAX  •  XAЯA b ИA M  02:52, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * A grammatical interpretation makes little sense for the rule because such sentences can be recast to make the real world place the subject. For example, "Grover's Mill was invaded by Martians." or "The Criterion Restaurant was where Dr Watson met the friend who introduced him to Sherlock Holmes."  I shall wait till the dust settles on the DYK and then take the matter further as it is our policy not to work in this way. Andrew (talk) 09:02, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I never mentioned a grammatical interpretation nor did I intend such an interpretation. I don't care what the grammatical subject of the sentence is. I've been talking about the subject matter of the hook, which remains the same regardless of the word order, whether it's Watson and how he learned about Holmes in a bar or Martians invading New Jersey. This has absolutely nothing to do with bureaucracy; it's about common sense. M AN d ARAX  •  XAЯA b ИA M  09:52, 19 January 2014 (UTC)