Template:Did you know nominations/Einsatzgruppe H, Hlinka Guard Emergency Divisions, Kremnicka massacre


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 12:34, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

ALT3a already promoted; now promoting ALT3b

Einsatzgruppe H, Hlinka Guard Emergency Divisions, Kremnička and Nemecká massacres

 * ... that Einsatzkommando 14 and local collaborators committed the two most notorious massacres in the history of Slovakia? Source: "You are strongly encouraged to quote the source text supporting each hook" (and [link] the source, or cite it briefly without using citation templates)
 * ALT1:... that Einsatzkommando 14 and local collaborators committed the two largest massacres in the history of Slovakia?
 * In case three articles in one hook is too many, we could also go with:
 * ALT2a: ... that "Slovaks killed Slovaks" during the two largest massacres in the history of Slovakia? Source: Title of this article, Schön, Jozef (16 March 2017). "Keď Slovák vraždil Slováka". Hnonline (in Slovak). "When Slovaks killed Slovaks"
 * ALT2b: ... that along with murdering or deporting thousands of Jews and Romani people, Einsatzgruppe H targeted German soldiers suspected of defeatism and homosexuality?
 * Reviewed: Catherine Kerrison, Template:Did you know nominations/Denise Mueller-Korenek, Template:Did you know nominations/Conquest Brigade
 * Comment: Special occasion date 5 November, when the killings started; if that's not possible see other massacre dates in the article.

Created by Catrìona (talk). Self-nominated at 08:39, 8 October 2018 (UTC).


 * Comment I'm fairly sure for three bolded links you need 3 reviews, or am I wrong? Juxlos (talk) 13:49, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Where are the source texts for hooks requested in the nomination form?Georgejdorner (talk) 18:36, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * You're correct, that's in the supplementary rules and I wasn't aware of it. . It is not actually a requirement to quote sources, as long as they are cited in the article (which these are, see then end of Kremnička and Nemecká massacres). The reason why I commented on your hook is that it was odd to include a quote that did not actually support the proposed hook. There is actually no source describing the massacres as "notorious" simply because almost all sources are non-English, but being described as the "Slovak Katyn" and similar means that it's reasonable to conclude that this is the general view on the massacres in Slovakia. Catrìona (talk) 01:55, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the comment on my nom. It aided me in writing an improved hook.
 * I made the comments above about sourcing so you might correct the problems before you are reviewed. As your own nomination form states above (where you failed to give a source), "Source: "You are strongly encouraged to quote the source text supporting each hook" (and [link] the source, or cite it briefly without using citation templates)" Hooks ALT1 and ALT2b have no sourcing whatsoever. A lenient reviewer might let you slide on ALT2a.
 * And, yes, I recall when mentioning your cite without a link or quote was acceptable here in DYK, but times have changed.
 * Best regards.Georgejdorner (talk) 02:00, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't understand your emphasis on putting the sources in the hook nomination. The most important thing is that the hook facts are cited in the article, per WP:DYK 3. Cited hook. Yoninah (talk) 13:46, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment: I haven't seen a link to somewhere in the middle of a bolded article, and think it's not a good idea, - found it confusing. - And yes, 3 qpq reviews please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:48, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comment. There are 3 qpqs listed above. How about:


 * ALT3a: ... that Slovak collaborators participated in the two largest massacres in Slovakia during World War II? Rajcan, Vanda; Vadkerty, Madeline; Hlavinka, Ján (2018). "Slovakia". In Megargee, Geoffrey P.; White, Joseph R.; Hecker, Mel. Camps and Ghettos under European Regimes Aligned with Nazi Germany. Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos. 3. United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. ISBN 978-0-253-02373-5. p. 849
 * ALT3b: ... that along with murdering or deporting thousands of Jews and Romani people, Einsatzgruppe H targeted German soldiers suspected of defeatism and homosexuality? Šindelářová, Lenka (2013). "Einsatzgruppe H na povstaleckém Slovensku". Soudobé dějiny (in Czech). Prague. XX (4): 582–603. ISSN 1210-7050. p. 588 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Catrìona (talk • contribs) 08:48, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg Full review needed now that new ALT hooks have been provided. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:43, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * It appears that this is a November 5 date request and it is November 2. No one seems to want to take on this review, so I might as well.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:50, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * First, let's get these nominations into one hook. Based on the WP:LEAD of Hlinka Guard Emergency Divisions you could go with the following, although I have to take a look at the sources and make sure it is backed up:
 * ALT4... that the Hlinka Guard Emergency Divisions were known for there crimes against humanity in the Kremnička and Nemecká massacres in conjuction with Einsatzgruppe H?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:07, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking on this review. Your proposed hook is factually correct, except as far as I know "crimes against humanity" as a legal matter was not used to charge any of the perpetrators. It would be more accurate to say that Einsatzgruppe H sponsored the massacre, and the Hlinka Guard Emergency Divisions was drafted into helping them. However, after writing this I decided that trying to shoehorn the three articles into one hook wasn't as effective as separating them into two hooks; see above. The special occasion date (for the hook mentioning the Kremnicka/Nemecka massacres) doesn't have to be 5 November; it would be equally appropriate to have it on 20 November, 12 or 19 December, 4, 5, 11, or 20 January, or 19 February (the massacres took place on multiple days). Catrìona (talk) 05:19, 2 November 2018 (UTC)


 * It is not clear to me why two hooks is better than one. Can you rework 4 into an ALT5?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:22, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * It is not clear to me why Kremnička and Nemecká massacres is one article instead of two.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:22, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) I don't think that ALT4 is a good hook. So what if the two units were involved in a massacre? It doesn't give the reader any reason to click any of the links. Whereas, that Slovak collaborators were involved in the largest massacres on Slovak soil, that is noteworthy and interesting, and so is the fact that Einsatzgruppe H also targeted their own men.
 * 2) They're separate articles on the Czech and Slovak wikis, but I thought it made more sense to keep them in the same article since most sources discuss them together. The massacres involved the same perpetrators and victims, took place at the same location and with the same motivation. The victims had even been arrested in the same way and were taken from the same prison. According to one source, the perpetrators decided to switch the site of killings from Kremnicka to Nemecka because they ran out of space in the anti-tank ditches. (The Katyn massacre also took place in multiple locations.) Catrìona (talk) 05:44, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I question this "same perpetrators and victims, took place at the same location and with the same motivation". A victim could not have been massacred in both places and they are different locations. They seem as different to me as distinct concentration camps. I am going to need third party advice to allow this to go forward as a merged article (especially since they are distinct in other wikis).--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:50, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I believe it is against the WP:MOS to follow a redlink with alternate wikis like you did in Hlinka Guard Emergency Divisions.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:51, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * ALT5... that the Hlinka Guard Emergency Divisions were known for their holocost participation during the two largest World War II massacres in Slovakia in conjuction with Einsatzgruppe H, who also targeted their own men?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:00, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * All three articles are long enough and new enough. The articles are neutral, well-cited (although in a variety of languages) and within policy in terms of copyright.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:47, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The articles seem to have plenty of images, but none are being proposed in this nomination for the main page.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:47, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * QPQs seem to been sufficient for this 3-article nomination.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:47, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
 * TonyTheTiger, I don't see that you've yet given this review an icon. Even if there is still more to do, in a review this long, it's important to let the nominator and others to know its current status. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:56, 6 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Symbol question.svg This set of articles is pretty close. However, I am a bit troubled by the merger of two articles here that seem to be separate articles in other wikis that are culturally closer to the subject. I sort of view the Czech and Slovak wikis as the place where the subject matter experts are. If they view these as separate topics, why should we have a merged article. I am open to outside opinions on this matter, but encourage considering splitting the articles. I also mentioned an issue with alternate wikis in the text following a redlink.  We can revisit the hooks, when we resolve the article merge/split issue.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:15, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think it's odd that you would consider the Czech and Slovak wikis as definitive, given that the articles you are talking about (both Czech and Slovak) have no citations at all. Also, you haven't advanced a proposal or much of any argument why separating the articles would be beneficial. Currently, the article is independently rated B-class but it would probably be stub- or start-class if split. As for interlanguage links, a specific template exists for this purpose, and is widely used all over Wikipedia. If you don't like it, you should nominate the template for deletion. Catrìona (talk) 06:15, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I don't know what interlanguage link templates are suppose to be used for. I have met with great resistance in my editorial experience.  I have also never chanced upon one in article space, to my recollection. That being said, my calling in to question whether they meet core policies and guidelines is one of the few things I am suppose to check according to the review criteria here at DYK and has nothing to do with whether an article should be at WP:AFD, which is a notability judgement. Without digging through policy, I thought we might jointly determine that it was something that needed to be rectified. I may have to dig through interwiki link policy.  In regard to the split/merge, I don't judge foreign wikis for verifiability. En Wiki did not start enforcing verifiability until it got well past 1 million articles.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:26, 6 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg Second opinion requested as to whether it is relevant for DYK that one of the nominated articles here (on two massacres) is done as separate massacre articles on another language wiki, since that has been stalling this nomination for over three weeks. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:59, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that when two subjects both meet the notability criteria, it is up to editors' judgment whether they should be presented as separate articles or together. It follows that there is no problem when editors on a different project come to a different conclusion. Consider the List of Major League Baseball players with unidentified given names: as MLB players they all meet WP:NBASE, but since their last name being listed in one game appearance is often all that is known about them, after discussion most of them were sensibly merged into a single (featured) list. If this is the only objection I would promote the article. Kim Post (talk) 03:54, 11 December 2018 (UTC)


 * O.K. given that the split issue is resolved, we can address the issue of the Interlanguage link. Is there any policy or style guideline suggesting this is a desirable way to present content.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:00, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think there are any style guidelines either way. However, these links are common on articles dealing with subjects that are not as well represented in English sources, and I've used them on multiple GA articles without complaints from reviewers. If it's OK for GA articles, why not DYK? My opinion is that these links serve a useful purpose and should not be gotten rid of. Furthermore, I ask the promoter to consider the two hooks (ALT3a and ALT3b) that I suggested above, which I think are more suited to DYK than a combined hook. Catrìona (talk) 23:47, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Symbol voting keep.svg, I don't have a strong preference between using ALT3a and ALT3b or ALT5, but the nominator prefers the former. I am now comfortable supporting this.


 * Promoting ALT3a, with ALT3b to follow in another hook set at a later date. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:42, 15 December 2018 (UTC)