Template:Did you know nominations/Flagler Hospital

Flagler Hospital
Created/expanded by Mgreason (talk). Self nom at 14:19, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * ... that Flagler Hospital in St. Augustine, Florida, named for Henry Flagler, has been a not-for-profit facility since its' establishment in 1890?
 * Reviewed: Jack Rothfuss


 * Symbol possible vote.svg The article has a distinct shortage of reference citations (footnotes). The DYK rules call for adequate reference support throughout, with an expectation of at least one footnote per paragraph. It appears that the interesting history section, which is mostly unreferenced, is partly based on this page on the hospital website. That source needs to be cited -- and ideally some of the content would be corroborated by citations to sources independent of the hospital.

Article length and dates are fine. Duplication Detector found some instances of wording and phrasing that is a bit too similar for comfort (click on the link to see the report -- and look at the phrasing surrounding the tool's hits).

As for the hook, I am not particularly impressed that the hospital is not-for-profit, as almost all U.S. hospitals used to be nonprofit, and most still are. However, I can imagine some interesting hooks about Flagler and his role in establishing the hospital. --Orlady (talk) 01:26, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * PS - It appears that you have several DYKs under your belt, so you should be trying your hand at some DYK reviews for the "quid pro quo" requirement. Did you do one for this nomination? Do you need some free advice (worth every penny you pay for it!) to help you get started? --Orlady (talk) 01:35, 18 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Regarding the "distinct shortage of reference citations", I do not understand the basis for the statement when there are 19 cited references. I added the hospital's history on their website, reference #6, which was an oversight.


 * Regarding the close phrasing, I have rewritten the most egregious cases.


 * Regarding the hook, how about...
 * ALT1... that Flagler Hospital, established March 1, 1890 in St. Augustine, Florida and named for Henry Flagler, was rebuilt by Flagler's widow after it burned in 1916? Mgrē@sŏn  15:33, 19 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the improvements to the article. Regarding the number of reference citations, I guess I was not sufficiently clear. The concern is not with the number of sources cited, but rather with using footnotes to indicate where the article information came from, per WP:Citing sources. The general rule for DYK eligibility is that each paragraph should have at least one footnote. Additionally, where the hook fact(s) appear(s) in the article, footnote(s) need to be provided so that the reader can easily identify the source of the information in the hook. The article still has a lot of content that is not supported by citation; the hook facts are included in the content that is not cited. --Orlady (talk) 16:02, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Mgreason, I share Orlady's concerns about the copyvio in this article-- particularly since you have quite a number of older DYKs that might need review. I watchlisted this DYK a week ago to see if the concerns about your copyvio would be detected at DYK, and was relieved to see that Orlady conducted a thorough review and caught the copyvio and sourcing issues (an indication that some rigor in DYK review is now in evidence). On the other hand, considering the sourcing and copyvio issues in this article, I would not encourage you to spend your time reviewing other DYKs per the QPQ requirement; rather, I would ask that you spend some time reviewing your past DYKs for any possible sourcing issues, copyvio, or plagiarism. These pages may be helpful: WP:CLOSEPARAPHRASE and Wikipedia Signpost/2009-04-13/Dispatches. (Kudos to Orlady for a thorough review, which is not always the norm at DYK.) Sandy Georgia (Talk) 16:20, 19 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Orlady, to the best of my knowledge, all of the issues raised in this DYK have been resolved. If you agree, please finish the review; if not, let me know specifically what remains. Thanks for your assistance. Mgrē@sŏn  02:08, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Symbol question.svg I see improvements to almost all the concerns above, however, I believe that the "Honors" section is still far too uncited. Also, has QPQ been fulfilled? - The Bushranger One ping only 00:44, 6 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I have added a source for each honor. At the top of the template, it states: "Reviewed: Jack Rothfuss" Mgrē@sŏn  02:13, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The only outstanding issue would be close paraphrasing; looking at DupDetector I don't see it as being close enough for a thumbs-down, but I'll defer to Orlady on this. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:29, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * 16px Since Orlady has not replied, I'm going to give this a conditional thumbs-up, reccomending that the promoting admin double-check with Duplication Detector upon promotion - it appears OK to me but multiple opinions are best. ALT1 is the preferred hook. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:39, 9 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Symbol possible vote.svg I've found several problems with this article.
 * http://www.drbronsontours.com/bronsonaliciahospital.html and http://www.drbronsontours.com/bronsonfloridaeastcoastrailwayhospital.html are from a self-published website; see http://www.drbronsontours.com/bronsonauthorsintroduction.html.

Gil Wilson is a reputable individual who provides a lot of St. Augustine information via the internet. I have found his website to be accurate and unbiased. Mgrē@sŏn 15:05, 9 November 2011 (UTC)


 * http://www.alacrastore.com/deal-snapshot/Almost_Family_Inc_acquires_Community_Home_Health_from_Flagler_Hospital_FL-429119 is not the accurate source; http://www.alacrastore.com/storecontent/Thomson_M&A/Almost_Family_Inc_acquires_Community_Home_Health_from_Flagler_Hospital_FL-1711856020 is.

I changed the url as per Cunard's suggestion. Mgrē@sŏn 15:05, 9 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Article: "The Post–World War II baby boom resulted in a big increase in admissions, with almost 40 births per month."Source: "The year 1943 saw the number of patients cared for skyrocket to almost 200 per month with the birth rate running close to 40 per month."
 * This is an inaccurate representation of the source. The Post–World War II baby boom is considered to be between 1946 and 1946.

I believe you mis-stated the above. You should have said, "1946 and 1957". I changed to article to better match the source.
 * Article: "Two years later, Flagler merged with St. Augustine General Hospital, doubling the number of patient beds from 150 to over 300."Source: "The facility grew to 316 beds in 1991 after its merger with St. Augustine General Hospital ..."
 * I see no mention in the source of the number of patient beds prior to the merger.
 * Article: "The ER recorded 60,000 visits per year, and most of them were not true emergencies."Source: "Finding the company’s mission wasn't Gordy's only priority; he also needed to find a creative way to improve patient satisfaction, starting with the ER. 'I spoke with ER staff members and told them that if we have about 60,000 visits per year, every one of those patients will go home and tell at least one person about their experience,' said the chief executive. 'That's 120,000 people who will have an opinion on our ER.' ... The majority of visits to the ER aren’t emergencies, and administrators at Flagler were noticing that more people without health insurance were using it in place of doctor’s office visits."
 * The 60,000 number is a hypothetical by CEO of Flagler Hospital Joe Gordy. There is no indication this is the actual number.

The actual number of ER visits was not important, so I removed it from the article. Mgrē@sŏn 15:05, 9 November 2011 (UTC)


 * "The efforts paid off; surveys in 2005 were in the 90s with a 98 in December." – the units of measurement should be specified.

I added "percentile" to the article to clarify. Mgrē@sŏn 15:05, 9 November 2011 (UTC)


 * My spotchecks of the sources did not find more close paraphrasing issues, though I did not check the entire article.
 * I fixed two typos in the article ("hosptial's" and "begame"). I urge The Bushranger to review articles more closely before promoting them.

Cunard (talk) 06:14, 9 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Gil Wilson is a reputable individual who provides a lot of St. Augustine information via the internet. I have found his website to be accurate and unbiased.Because there is no indication of editorial oversight, Wilson's webpages do not pass Identifying reliable sources, which requires that sources have a reputation for fact-checking and editorial oversight.I do not have the time at the moment to perform more spotchecks on this article; will another editor do so? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 07:31, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Further comments:


 * The Gil Wilson self-published source is still in the article.
 * Lead: "The organization has received numerous accolades[ref] and offers 'Centers of Excellence' in bariatrics, heart, cancer, maternity, orthopedics and sinus.[ref]"
 * Both of these assertions are cited to the hospital's website and may be considered promotional.


 * "Henry Flagler died in 1913" is not supported by http://www.flaglerhospital.org/About-Flagler/Hospital-History.aspx. Based on the Wikipedia article Henry Flagler, he is died in 1913. though I don't think it's "common knowledge" that can be left uncited.
 * "The St. Johns County population exceeded 50,000 during the 1980s, and the Marine street facility was no longer adequate. Planning began for a new health park on a more accessible 75-acre parcel along the east side of U.S. Highway 1. The move to the new location was completed in 1989"
 * This is sourced to http://www.healthgrades.com/hospital-directory/florida-fl/flagler%20hospital-hgst39138d46100090, though I am unable to find it in that source.


 * "Two years later, Flagler merged with St. Augustine General Hospital, doubling the number of patient beds from 150 to over 300."
 * This has not been fixed. See my comment above.


 * I have reviewed only the first half of the article and still see problems with sourcing. Cunard (talk) 21:38, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

No response to Cunard's comments in several days, article has not been touched since 9 November. Enough is enough. Thank you, Cunard, for going above and beyond the call of duty here. BencherliteTalk 19:58, 15 November 2011 (UTC)