Template:Did you know nominations/For What It's Worth (game show), Insert Name Here


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by  —♦♦ AMBER  (ЯʘCK)  12:07, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

For What It's Worth (game show), Insert Name Here

 * ... that For What It's Worth, an antiques game show on BBC1, and Insert Name Here, a comedy panel show on BBC2, premiered on the same day?


 * ALT1:... that although For What It's Worth was originally meant to have a different expert each week, the episodes were broadcast such that there was a different expert allocated to each weekday?
 * ALT2: ... that although Sandi Toksvig's takeover of QI made her the first female to front a UK panel show, Sue Perkins' Insert Name Here was broadcast first?
 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/2015 Colorado Springs shooting, Template:Did you know nominations/Gomsin
 * Comment: The first article was new, the second expanded. I've put new, but I'm not sure how to enter this fact into the template.

Created by Launchballer (talk). Self-nominated at 13:19, 6 January 2016 (UTC).


 * Symbol possible vote.svg A good start; length and date are fine for both articles. A few concerns do need addressing:
 * The For What It's Worth (game show) citations all come from BBC sources, which seems problematic; all are essentially primary sources.
 * A difficulty with the original hook is that it isn't a fact actually mentioned in either article, but synthesizes primary sources from both. ALT1 is also a synthesis from primary sources.
 * I can't tell if the ALT2 fact is specifically mentioned in the cited source; a subscription to The Times appears to be required to read the full article. Perhaps this fact can be sourced from a different place?
 * Finally, Template:Did you know nominations/Gomsin needs to be completed before this DYK can be approved. Thanks!--Lemuellio (talk) 17:06, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Lemuellio, if a full review has been done (emphasis on "full", in that all the DYK criteria should be covered), then even if the review hasn't been concluded because of issues raised or work needed, the QPQ requirement has been satisfied. It isn't fair to delay a reviewer's credit while waiting (sometimes for weeks) while the issues raised are dealt with. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:07, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you, BlueMoonset; I didn't realize that. I've removed that sentence.--Lemuellio (talk) 20:13, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
 * If you want to be eMailed a copy of The Times article, contact as he originally supplied me with it. I've added a couple more sources to the first article.--  Laun  chba  ller  02:10, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
 * the cited Times source does confirm the ALT2 fact, saying: "Sandi Toksvig... was due to become the first female host of a mainstream comedy TV panel show, when she takes over the reins of QI later this year, but Sue Perkins last night pipped her to it on Insert Name Here." JohnCD (talk) 16:09, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg My thanks to you both. ALT2 is good to go!--Lemuellio (talk) 23:55, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

IMPORTANT NOTE. This nomination has been reopened following discussion at WT:DYK. However, it had been closed for both nominations at once, and For What It's Worth (game show) has already been featured as a DYK on the main page by now. This reopened nomination is only about Insert Name Here. Fram (talk) 10:39, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Symbol possible vote.svg ALT2, which was originally promoted, has been struck because of the issues raised at WT:DYK, along with the original dual hook. ALT1 (For What It's Worth) was promoted and has run successfully. Right now, the Insert Name Here nomination needs a new hook to be proposed and vetted. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:53, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I believe I suggested a hook on the discussion there in the form of "just add mainstream comedy" or something.-- Laun  chba  ller  17:59, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Launchballer, if you're interested in pursuing this nomination further, please add a new and complete ALT hook. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:13, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
 * ALT3: ... that although Sandi Toksvig's takeover of QI made her the first female to front a UK mainstream comedy TV panel show, Sue Perkins' Insert Name Here was broadcast first? -- Laun  chba  ller  12:44, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Was "made her the first female to front a UK mainstream comedy TV panel show" ever even true for Toksvig? Sure, someone said it in print, and even claims that Perkins edged out Toksvig, but while Insert Name Here was commissioned after Toksvig was announced, QI is still broadcasting Fry's final season even as Insert Name Here is broadcasting its first. Toksvig hasn't even started filming, so far as I can tell. I don't see how someone can be fronting a show while the previous host is still at it unless filming has started on the next season. (And QI does call Fry a "host", while Insert Name Here says it is "presented by" Perkins.) How about something more direct:
 * ALT4: ... that with Insert Name Here, Sue Perkins became the first female to host a UK mainstream comedy TV panel show?
 * ALT4a: ... that with last month's premiere of Insert Name Here, Sue Perkins became the first female to host a UK mainstream comedy TV panel show?
 * I've also added a DYKmake credit for Astronomyblog, who created the article the day before Launchballer started to work on it. —BlueMoonset (talk) 08:25, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * ALT5: ... that although it was announced that Sandi Toksvig's takeover of QI made her the first female to front a UK mainstream comedy TV panel show, last month's premiere of Insert Name Here made its host Sue Perkins the first?
 * Unfortunately, ALT5 is 218 characters, far too long. Also, there is nothing in the article that states that the announcement said she'd be the first, and the source requires a subscription, so I can't check what it actually says (even though the cited review is well over two months after the actual announcement). Launchballer, please be more careful with your hook suggestions: if the article doesn't have the exact fact and/or it isn't supported by the sources, then you shouldn't be posting the hook. BlueMoonset (talk) 09:25, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 217 characters, I accidentally added double spacing to the hook. I knew The Times was subscription-only, but I didn't know any of the BBC sources were. (If you want to see The Times article, have a look in the source of our article.) Either of your ALTs are fine, I was just hoping to circumvent having to wait for someone else to look at them.
 * Incidentally, I should offer an explanation as to why I didn't add a DYKmake credit for Astronomyblog myself; I had expanded the article 5x on my own, so I didn't think it was necessary.-- Laun  chba  ller  10:30, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg New reviewer needed to check ALT4 and ALT4a. Insert Name Here is the only article under consideration; the For What It's Worth hook has already been promoted. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:10, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Symbol possible vote.svg Wrong on so many levels at the moment. It doesn't help that the template on the article's Talk page says it has already been featured on DYK. The article is almost entirely cited to primary (BBC) sources and the "Episodes" section has no citations at all (let alone reliable ones). The hook(s) do not seem to be directly cited and the final, lengthy sentence rambles incoherently about a variety of things - Sandi Toksvig, the News Quiz, lengthy quote about something (presumably Insert Name Here). Back to basics needed here I'm afraid. Sionk (talk) 14:49, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Sionk, it appears that when the hook was removed from Queue 5, the DYKmake credit was not removed, so the DYKUpdateBot added a credit to the article's talk page; I have just removed the DYK credit from there, so the talk page no longer claims a main page appearance that did not occur. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:01, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The lack of sourcing in the Episodes section is easily resolved - just cite those. The rest was a bit trickier and I have a lesson in a minute so I'll leave the hooks until later or external suggestion - is what's there better?-- Laun  chba  ller  12:55, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I very much appreciate the way this article is improving, and have made a few edits for clarification and balance., please let us know if your concerns been adequately addressed.
 * As for the hook, ALT4 sounds like the best option so far, though "female" as a noun is perhaps a bit clinical. How about this?
 * ALT6: ... that with Insert Name Here, Sue Perkins became the first woman to host a UK mainstream comedy TV panel show?
 * --Lemuellio (talk) 16:18, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

ALT6 seems fine and I can see the fact is verified further up the article. However, I'm a bit concerned that citing the "Format" and "Episodes" sections solely to the, erm, episodes themselves is gaming the system. Surely there is at least something that can be genuinely verified by a secondary source? Sionk (talk) 11:25, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
 * ALT7 ... that British panel TV show Insert Name Here, is presented by Sue Perkins, and was noted by The Times as feeling "like a show where everyone has been hugged"?
 * According to WP:TVPLOT, using episodes as primary sources is perfectly fine for this kind of information. (Indeed, per TVPLOT, such information doesn't need to have citations attached at all, since it's implicitly clear that the source is the show itself.) So I'd say the article's OK on that score. Lemuellio (talk) 21:27, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think adding the word "mainstream" is enough. As shown at Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 121, there have been other comedy panel shows with female presenters. A Question of Sport seems pretty mainstream to me.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  22:04, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd never thought of it as one because in my mind, comedy panel shows include comedians, and I can't remember the last time I saw one on there. I'll pillage the article for hooks when I'm at a computer but in the meantime, have you any suggestions? -- Laun  chba  ller  09:51, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I have proposed ALT7, which is still awaiting review. While I agree that you could technically argue that the ALT6 is presented as fact, I think the likelihood of it being misinterpreted is too high and likely to appear on Main Page/Errors (again).  Jolly  Ω   Janner  18:47, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I must say I'm not too sold on ALT7, mainly because it brings together two completely unrelated facts that have no bearing on each other. I'd like to make it more focused and more precise. That means dropping the Sue Perkins thing altogether:


 * ALT8 ... that British panel TV show Insert Name Here was noted by The Times as feeling "like a show where everyone has been hugged"?


 * How about that? —♦♦ AMBER  (ЯʘCK)  16:26, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
 * That's fine. I'm feeling a bit bruised from reading the "This Week And Next" section of this, which refutes the contents of ALT6.-- Laun  chba  ller  16:54, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg Alright then. We're going to need someone fresh to check ALT8 and hopefully (and finally) send this DYK on its merry way with a DYKtick. —♦♦  AMBER  (ЯʘCK)  23:01, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The recent edits on the article regarding ALT6 gave me an idea.
 * ALT9: ... that although The Times suggested that with Insert Name Here, Sue Perkins became the first woman to host a UK mainstream comedy TV panel show, UKGameshows.com's Weaver's Week argued that Jo Brand's Hot Potatoes, Gabby Logan's I Love My Country and Sue Barker's A Question of Sport pipped Perkins to the post? (Merely a suggestion, I can excise where necessary.)-- Laun  chba  ller  21:08, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Launchballer, why are you even wasting our time with a 308-character hook that even includes a forbidden red link? Even if you were to delete all of the pipping show names, it would still be too long. I've struck ALT9, and don't want to see any more clearly ineligible hooks; this DYK nomination is currently the oldest extant one, and needs to be wrapped up without delay. (I've just edited ALT7 for smoothness, though Amberrock may still object to its combination of facts.) BlueMoonset (talk) 22:49, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Because the reorganization of facts in that paragraph gave me an idea. Again, I have no problem with ALT8; what is your take on its acceptability and if it is unacceptable, how about
 * ALT10: ... that The Times ' suggestion that Insert Name Here made Sue Perkins the first woman to host a UK mainstream comedy TV panel show was refuted by Weaver's Week?- Laun  chba  ller  11:00, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg ALT10 rest of this article has already been reviewed. I'm just confirming that the hook is interesting, under 200 characters and cited to reliable sources. I cannot review the other hooks as I proposed them, but I'd rather see this wrapped up.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  09:09, 25 February 2016 (UTC)