Template:Did you know nominations/Frances Ivens


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:32, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Frances Ivens

 * ... that Frances Ivens, first woman surgeon in Liverpool, UK was awarded both the Legion d'honneur and the Croix de Guerre by the French government for her services to the French forces during WWI.
 * Comment: Additionally there is also this image by noted Glasgow Girls artist Norah Neilson Gray: File:The Scottish Women's Hospital - in the Cloister of the Abbaye at Royaumont. Dr. Frances Ivens inspecting a French patient. Art.IWMART3090.jpg
 * Comment: Additionally there is also this image by noted Glasgow Girls artist Norah Neilson Gray: File:The Scottish Women's Hospital - in the Cloister of the Abbaye at Royaumont. Dr. Frances Ivens inspecting a French patient. Art.IWMART3090.jpg

Created by Iainmacintyre (talk). Nominated by Stinglehammer (talk) at 16:03, 24 February 2018 (UTC).


 * Alt1... that Frances Ivens, first woman surgeon in Liverpool, UK, received the Legion d'honneur and the Croix de Guerre for her services to the French forces during the First World War.
 * Would this hook (above) work? I calculate it at 176 characters using the character count tool.Stinglehammer (talk) 11:19, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment: What about something about a female surgeon pioneering a "new approach to the treatment of gas gangrene, using X-rays and bacteriology" (if indeed she did) in a World War One hospital near the front line or that sometimes came under shell fire (or something along those lines)?
 * The post-war career section needs turning into proper prose as it reads like a list at the moment. Philafrenzy (talk) 11:56, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Tweaked the prose in the post-war career section. Any better? Stinglehammer (talk) 12:12, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks. The reviewer needs to return. Philafrenzy (talk) 12:20, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Second hook is fine. I added a couple of links and a comma. Now just awaiting the QPQ. — howcheng  {chat} 18:07, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
 * , the article author is exempt from QPQ as they have less than 5 dyk credits. Whispyhistory (talk) 05:49, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
 * A better hook is still required. I am not sure about "first woman surgeon in Liverpool", the article says "first woman to hold an honorary post in a Liverpool hospital" and "first woman appointed to a hospital consultant post in Liverpool". Being first in Liverpool seems a narrow claim unless the Liverpudlians were particularly chauvinist. Winning awards is also not very interesting unless accompanied by the deeds for which the award was given. Can the nominator come up with something better please? The material is there. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:40, 1 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment::First woman surgeon in Liverpool is impressive in an era when opposition to women in medicine was widespread. Consultant appointments to the voluntary and municipal hospitals were honorary at that time. I've added the citation for the award of the Croix de guerre.Papamac (talk) 20:16, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment: Also remember that Louisa Aldrich-Blake, often described as Britain's first woman surgeon, worked under Ivens at Royaumont and was not appointed to a consultant post until 1919. Papamac (talk) 11:28, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Here's a few alts from a quick review of the sources. They may need refinement:


 * Alt2 ...that when English surgeon Frances Ivens joined the military hospital at Royaumont during the First World War, she had no experience of treating men?
 * Alt3...that English surgeon, Frances Ivens, pioneered a new approach to the treatment of gas gangrene at the Royaumont hospital for war wounded during the First World War?
 * Alt4...that after the Somme offensive, surgeon Frances Ivens had to create segregated wards at the Royaumont hospital in France after tensions between wounded Senegalese and Arab soldiers?
 * There are plenty more in the material. These are from the article text and Weiner article. Alt2 is the best in my opinion. Philafrenzy (talk) 12:17, 2 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment:: Thanks Alt2 also seems best to me. The detail for Alt3 is covered elsewhere  in  Scottish Women's Hospital at Royaumont. I'll add necessary detail and citation for Alt2.  thanks for nominating.Papamac (talk) 11:12, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
 * For Alt3, the article says that Royaumont doctors pioneered the treatment, not Ivens specifically. However, Alt2 works well, so that one is good to go. — howcheng  {chat} 16:35, 7 March 2018 (UTC)