Template:Did you know nominations/French Sudan

French Sudan

 * ... that French Sudan, which would become Mali, was the second French colony to vote for increased autonomy in 1958?
 * Reviewed: Wood Law Firm
 * Comment: Source for this is offline, so gonna have to AGF. Here's the original quote from the news article: "The French West African Sudan territory today declared itself a republic within the framework of Gen. Charles de Gaulle's French 'community of nations.'  It became the second French African territory to do so."  -Washington Post 1958.  Thanks.

5x expanded by AbstractIllusions (talk). Self nominated at 03:37, 19 July 2013 (UTC).


 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg Was it really fivefold expanded on July 18 or you made a mistake on nomination? The 16th version is a 6000 character long article the current one is 12.500 and it's not a BLP to satisfy the DYK criteria with a 2x expansion.  Lajbi   Holla @ me  •  CP  16:46, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the check. The version at the start of July 16th was 1,502 characters before I started expanding, now it is 12,000+. That's an 8-fold expansion in the last 5 days (well within DYK rules), what am I missing? AbstractIllusions (talk) 17:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So I think the confusion was that I listed it on the 18th but the rules say to list it when the expansion started. So I moved the nomination up to July 16th spot. Hope that clarifies the expansion process started on the 16th, wrapped up on the 18th. AbstractIllusions (talk) 17:37, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, I will get back to further reviewing soon.  Lajbi  Holla @ me  •  CP  18:15, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg Resuming review. So everything meets criteria (lenghts, copyivo, refs, QPQ, neutrality). What I have a problem with is the wording. As far as my background research went French Sudan became the République Soudanaise in 1958 and only expressed intent on joining the French Community, which wasn't even founded yet. So step-by-step:
 * I'm not a big fan of AGF passes. One can dig harder and deeper to find valid online sources. Now as enumaration doesn't count as a WP:OR, this source enlists the events and it verifies the claim that Sudan was the second in proclaiming something (see §3.). On a sidenote you should consider adding charles-de-gaulle.org as ref to the article.
 * If a colony transforms into a republic and wants to join a loose community (e.g. British Commonwealth), then it became independent in the true meaning of the word and not an "increased autonomy" territory. I'd say a more accurate expression should be needed.
 * According to that source I gave above on 20 december 1958 "Le général de Gaulle signe les ordonnances relatives à l'organisation de la Communauté.", which means "General de Gaulle signed orders for the organization of the Community." So Sudan couldn't join it at the very moment he declared his change of form of state and obviously it didn't happen in 1958 (10 days left for that). Sudan couldn't be the second in joining(!) as I suppose that at the official formation all state members were integrated at the same date. Sudan only expressed his INTENT of doing so second after Madagascar.
 * Post-check note: This last problem only concerns the source quote comment of the Washington Post (meaning the ref is inaccurate). You didn't included the French Community in the hook, although you might want to change it in the article itself. Although the "autonomy" would be better changed to a more specific description of the event.
 * Any thoughts before fixing these?  Lajbi  Holla @ me  •  CP  08:45, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * ALT1: ... that French Sudan, which would become Mali, was the second colony to vote to join the French Community in 1958?
 * Response: Thanks for the review. How about the Alt1? It is more specific, as you request, and as you note the hook doesn't specify when it actually joined the FC, but just that it voted second to do so.  In regards to your specific claims:

1. Under the terms of the French Community, states did not gain formal independence (as they did not gain the right to have foreign or military policy) they gained self-rule. The French Community 1958-1961 is fundamentally of a different structure than the British Commonwealth.
 * So in that aspect they operated the same way as a Dual monarchy do. For example in Austria-Hungary Hungary didn't have the right of own foreign and military policy neither but was regarded as independent. What wasn't independent is e.g. Slovenia in that same personal union. That's why I asked the rephrase because usually a "republic" - that Sudan transformed into - means independent for readers.  Lajbi   Holla @ me  •  CP  12:47, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

2. I see the logic to your criticism of the chronology, but A. as you note the hook does not specify when they joined the Community, simply when they voted to. B. What De Gaulle did on Dec. 20 was pass legislation to specify the aspects of what the French Community would do (further legislation like this was passed in 1959 and I guess 1961 too), but the "French Community" existed when the Fifth Republic came into effect (usually dated to October 4th, but your source has it at October 5th). So there actually isn't a problem with chronology, the French Community existed in October, French Soudan joined in November, De Gaulle passed legislation about the terms of that organization in December. AbstractIllusions (talk) 12:26, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg All cleared. ALT1 Good to go. Thank you for your detailed and fast response. Sorry for my tone about AGF but I like to set things straight.  Lajbi   Holla @ me  •  CP  12:36, 20 July 2013 (UTC)