Template:Did you know nominations/Helena Historic District (Helena, Montana)

Helena Historic District (Helena, Montana)

 * ... that urban renewal in the 1970s resulted in about 240 buildings within the Helena Historic District (example building pictured) being demolished and in a boundary adjustment that was included both additions and removals?
 * Reviewed: Jim Mees

Created by PumpkinSky (talk). Self nominated at 02:09, 7 April 2013 (UTC).
 * Comment Add the relevant citation immediately after "newer sections" (is that citation #2?), and you'd have a catchier hook: something like "due to an economic crisis, there's a big time gap between the older and newer sections of downtown Helena, Montana". Nyttend (talk) 02:11, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ALT1 ... that due to the Panic of 1893 there is a large time gap in the older and newer sections of downtown Helena, Montana (example building pictured)?  Pumpkin Sky   talk  02:21, 7 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Pictogram voting keep.svg Article is new enough, long enough, well referenced. Reference is offline, so AGF there for verification and paraphrasing. Solid little article. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:16, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Symbol question.svg After a concern from KevinMcE on WT:DYK, I thought it was best to pull the hook out of the prep-area, to have more time to solve Kevin's concern over the hook. I'm copy-pasting his comment below. Mentoz86 (talk) 09:42, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not at all clear what that due to the Panic of 1893 there is a large time gap in the older and newer sections of downtown Helena, Montana? is meant to mean.


 * If is means that there are physically distinct zones dating from different times in the city centre, and that in one of these all the buildings date from before 1893, and in the other all the buildings were constructed some unspecified, but "large", number of years later, then that is far from explicit in the article. If that is not what is meant, then the hook needs to be clearer. Kevin McE (talk) 09:14, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It means due to the financial crisis new construction essentially halted for many years so one can see a big stylistic difference in the city center. One could also just use the main hook. Pumpkin Sky   talk  10:11, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So are there distinct sections? When was the first building in the area after 1893 built? In the first hook, I assume the first both is an error to be deleted.  A boundary change can result in either an increase or a decrease of area, but not  both: it might involve both additions and removals. Kevin McE (talk) 10:27, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Cut the first both, changed to additions and removals as those are better terms in this case. Give a bit of time to look up details on the alt hook to refresh my memory. Pumpkin Sky  talk  10:33, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, the ref says construction stopped for "twenty or thirty years". Maybe we can say in the article "about 25 years"?  Pumpkin Sky   talk  01:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd say we can say whatever is sourced. There were actually multiple changes, the 1893 was a big one, but there were also floods, fires, an earthquake in 1935 and a major urban renewal project that hit the downtown. What's remarkable is that it is still standing!  Montanabw (talk) 16:28, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, I have copies of the NRHP noms as does PumpkinSky, so let me note that your AGF is fine. I made a couple minor copyedits to the article, noting what changed since the 1972 NRHP nomination document. I also am linking some material I just added to an online source that is not as "official" but can provide backup to the NRHP materials we have, though it is a less scholarly source. The challenge of this article is that there are so many individual buildings counted in a single nomination and then they changed the boundaries twice, so it gets tricky to figure out what's here, what was torn down, what's in the current district, etc. However, I'm thinking that because Urban renewal had the biggest impact of all on the HDHD, even more than the earthquake, the fires AND the architectural changes between pre- and post- 1893 structures (both fire and earthquake took an additional toll), may I propose Alt2 below? Montanabw (talk) 16:28, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Alt2: *... that the Helena Historic District (Atlas building pictured) required a major boundary adjustment when urban renewal in the 1970s destroyed about 61 historically significant buildings?
 * Godo edits and I'm good with MTBW's alt too. Pumpkin Sky  talk  16:37, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure what HDHDs, MTBWs or NRHPs are (and I almost asked myself what the acronym AND stood for) but the qualms I had with the hooks are resolved in this proposal. Kevin McE (talk) 17:01, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the alphabet soup, I am sometimes called "MTBW", NRHP is National Register of Historic Places, and HDHD is shorthand for Helena Downtown Historic District (also HHD)  Montanabw (talk) 21:19, 22 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Pictogram voting keep.svg Reinstating tick, issues addressed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)