Template:Did you know nominations/Joceline Clemencia


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:06, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Joceline Clemencia

 * ... that Afro-Curaçaoan writer and educator Joceline Clemencia advocated for Papiamento to become an official language of Curaçao?


 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Naborr
 * Comment: For WikiProject Women in Red's Black Women's History editathon

Created by SusunW (talk). Self-nominated at 20:35, 18 February 2016 (UTC).


 * Symbol question.svg First of all: nice job on the article! Article is new enough as it was nominated on the day of creation, it certainly is long enough and cites its sources with inline citations. Article is also neutral and seems to be free of copyvio's. As for the hook: it's correctly formatted, interesting and neutral. I do have some questions regarding its sourcing. I suspect it is based on these two sentences: "She advocated for the language to be standardized and taught as it was the mother-tongue of the country" and "Her efforts at recognition of Papiamentu as an official language were finally successful in 2007, when the government accepted it as one of the official languages, along with Dutch and English". As for the first sentence it has two citations, one is a raport Clemencia wrote herself (which even though it is published UNESCO makes it hard to be independent + I would like a page number if possible) and the second source is a blog which is also shaky ground to be a reliable source. Concerning the second sentence, its citation makes no mention of Clemencia. QPQ done. Crispulop (talk) 21:30, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review. I'll try to answer. I used only the first two citations, but her founding schools teaching Papiamento also show she was in favor. Blogs are not forbidden. One must analyze who the source of the blog is and what its purpose is. It isn't a fan site and it isn't a PR site. Jan Stedehouder is a Dutch journalist, writer and columnist. He also serves as an editor on the board of Nieuwsdienst Media Update. That he posted an obituary on his blog only says to me that he thought it was important to note but couldn't get a paper to take the article.(Not very unusual that colonial mother countries rarely print news on happenings in their territorial holdings unless they are of national import to the mother country.) Not sure how I am going to cite a page number on the second document since the entire document is an argument for official recognition of Papiamiento. On page 11, I guess you could say that the sentences “…the Dutch education system that completely denies the linguistic context of both the Leeward and Windward Islands; with the socially dead Dutch language being compulsory, as mother tongue, at all levels of the education system, from elementary to university, while the national languages are Papiamentu and English …” and “The monograph points to the fact that the absence of the Papiamentu language in school implied the absence of a driving force to grow as a nation”, sums up her arguments for it becoming an official language. I do understand that she wrote the document, but she wrote it for UNESCO and was unlikely as a government employee working in the Linguistics Department to misrepresent their findings. I specifically did not tie her to the final passage, as the 2007 news article does not mention her. (Side note, Kriol or Creole languages are the lingua franca throughout the Caribbean, and rarely made official. Her arguments for and the fact that they actually made it an official language are astounding). I will keep looking for another document, but Netherlands on-line papers rarely mention Curaçao and Curaçao itself is a small island, which like the rest of the Caribbean has few of its records on-line. SusunW (talk) 23:29, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I found another source which talks about the reasons Clemencia was in favor of teaching Papiamiento. (I actually found sources in Papiamiento mentioning Clemencia, but not speaking it, I cannot tell what they say and translator programs don't translate it.) If you don't think this is sufficient, may have to come up with another hook and am open to suggestions.

SusunW (talk) 02:12, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Is there some reason this is still pending? SusunW (talk) 21:06, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Apologies, sorry I got to this so late. Her role in promoting Papiamento as a teaching/education language is absolutely clear to me, and that can be linked to the sources. But her role in advocating it as an official language (outside of the education context) I did not see confirmed yet. After some more searching I found the following sentence on page 31 of the Unesco file, under proposals: "• Officially declare Papiamentu and English as the national languages of the Antilles." My suggestion is to add a sentence to the article stating something similar to: In a study on ... for UNESCO Clemencia proposed to make Papiamento an official language in Curacao. And then to cite it to the sentence I just mentioned. Crispulop (talk) 23:49, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * THANK YOU! I have added a paraphrase of that with the citation. Really appreciate it as I think it was definitely her legacy. SusunW (talk) 00:00, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg Great, this one is good to go then! Crispulop (talk) 20:27, 3 March 2016 (UTC)