Template:Did you know nominations/Joseph Heleluhe


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:16, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Joseph Heleluhe
Source: Mellen 1958, p. 311; Allen 1982, p. 330; Liliuokalani 1898, pp. 270–271.
 * ... that during the 1895 counter-revolution, Joseph Heleluhe (pictured), private secretary to Hawaii's deposed queen Liliuokalani, was "stripped of all clothing and placed in a dark cell without light, food or water"?
 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/White-backed night heron

Moved to mainspace by KAVEBEAR (talk). Self-nominated at 04:17, 12 November 2016 (UTC).


 * On it.

Well, on first pass, the quote is sourced to the queen herself, which isn't going to fly for a self-serving claim like this. The other two alleged sources are not sourcing the quote or even the treatment in the hook, but only claim that Heleluhe was held. They're also both offline. Kindly rephrase, find a reputable secondary source, or come up with another hook. If two sources above do repeat the claim Heleluhe was held naked and without care, kindly have the article reflect that and give me some exact wording that I can use to find the passage on snippet view. Google is telling me the words "Joseph" and "Heleluhe" don't appear in the sources you're claiming, though it's possibly a glitch on their end.

As a side note, fixed the grammar and removed the links. They're not bad but you'll get more people clicking on Heleluhe's article if they're forced to go there first to learn more about Hawaii having queens and counter-coups. — Llywelyn II   05:06, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The exact details can only be found in Liliuokalani's book or secondary sources referencing the quotation. But from his two main obituaries we know he was held a political prisoner but never sentenced. Here is an alternative hook with less details. If that doesn't work, maybe a hook about his travels to Washington, DC.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:04, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * ALT1 ... that Joseph Heleluhe (pictured), private secretary to Hawaii's Queen Liliuokalani, was imprisoned in 1895? Source: Mellen 1958, p. 311; Allen 1982, p. 330; Liliuokalani 1898, pp. 270–271; ;
 * I get what you're saying and agree that we should provide the primary sources when we know exactly what the secondary sources are drawing from. The point is we can't leave it at that. If you have secondary sources that repeat what the queen claimed—assuming they're decent enough historians—that means they've examined the full record and other conflicting accounts and believe her. If you have something like that, we can run with the first (much more interesting) hook. We just can't pin it directly on the queen's self-serving claim.

The second hook is too bland and without context, though if you have a source that lets us say "was a political prisoner", "was one of 200 political prisoners", or something like that, it would be fine. Will draw in readers and tie it to current events if you phrase it that he was held/seized by "Republicans".

On my first pass, I had assumed that this was part of the uprisings that led to the overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy. Turns out, she was already gone. You don't really need to include her name (hook readers aren't going to distinguish her from the other Hawaiian monarchs they also don't know) but you should mention that she was already deposed and not the reigning monarch (and therefore responsible for his imprisonment). Don't worry about copy/pasting your sources here. That's an insane policy for lazy reviewers and I'll need to go make sure the article supports whatever you say anyway. — Llywelyn II   00:56, 17 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Seems like you're active and this'll be resolved soon, so the rest of the review: new enough; long enough (~4.7k elig. chars.); very well cited and done; no copyvio; QPQ should have checked for plagiarism/copied text using earwig's tool but was done. — Llywelyn II   01:16, 17 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I mean I don't care about hits going to Liliuokalani because these are a number of supporting articles I've been creating of associates of the queen. Either way is fine. But I mean his entire identity is associated with the queen; he was his servant and secretary for the majority of his adult life, so it is hard to describe him in many other ways. We can call him a Hawaiian royalist. Here are all the sources listed below (let me know if we can use the original hook given these) with some other suggested hooks. I assume you already known the entirety of Hawaii Story's source. Maybe you can suggest better ones given the sources below. KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:36, 17 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Sources
 * After the Insurrection of 1895 Mr. Heleluhe was kept a political prisoner In the barracks. but was never sentenced.
 * Meanwhile, her personal retainers and servants were being questioned at the prison in an effort to make them "disclose the queen's treachery." Joseph Heleluhe, her private secretary, was "stripped of all clothing and placed in a dark cell without light, food or water." After six weeks he was finally released without any charges having been placed against him. (Mellen 1958, p. 311)
 * She was told her agent Joseph Heleluhe had been prisoner and was under "severe examination." including placement in a dark cell and deprived of food and water. (Allen 1982, p. 330)


 * Hook variation
 * ALT2 ... that Joseph Heleluhe (pictured), private secretary to Hawaii's former Queen Liliuokalani, was taken as a political prisoner by Republicans?
 * ALT3 ... that Joseph Heleluhe (pictured), private secretary to Hawaii's former Queen Liliuokalani, was taken as a political prisoner in 1895?
 * ALT4 ... that Hawaiian royalist Joseph Heleluhe (pictured) was taken as a political prisoner by Republicans?
 * ALT5 ... that Hawaiian royalist Joseph Heleluhe (pictured) was taken as a political prisoner in 1895?


 * Symbol confirmed.svg With review and the Mellen & Allen cites above, the original hook (~150 chars.) is good to go. User:KAVEBEAR, if you object to the "deposed" part I inserted, just nix it before it gets promoted to the front page but I think it's an important detail anyway. — Llywelyn II   04:40, 17 November 2016 (UTC)