Template:Did you know nominations/Julia Stephen


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:20, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Julia Stephen

 * ... that Julia Stephen, Virginia Woolf's mother, planned to limit her family after her fourth child was born. But despite taking "precautions", or as Woolf put it, she "did what they could to prevent me", three more children including Woolf, were born in quick succession, due to the "imperfect art of contraception in the nineteenth century"? Sources: Woolf (1940) A Sketch of the Past p. 127; Bell (1972) Virginia Woolf: A Biography p. 18
 * ALT1: ... that despite doing "what they could to prevent me", Virginia Woolf's mother, Julia Stephen had three pregnancies in quick succession due to the "imperfect art of contraception"? Sources: Woolf (1940) A Sketch of the Past p. 127; Bell (1972) Virginia Woolf: A Biography p. 18

Created/expanded by Michael Goodyear (talk). Self-nominated at 16:29, 21 February 2018 (UTC).


 * Symbol possible vote.svg all checks (GA, no discernible copyvio, meets policy etc) out except for the hook. Two major issues (a) it's far too long (b) it contains two sentences.  If we can get something sorted out sooner rather than later, this could run on International Women's Day on 8 March, so alt hooks required please.  Along the same lines would be fine, but much shorter and snappier... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:14, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg Great, I've bolded the target, removed two extra full stops at the end, but this is good to go. Well done. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:29, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Symbol question.svg The hook is very unclear. It also puts too much emphasis on the subject's notability being due to her parenting a famous author. I suggest this rewording:
 * ALT1a: ... that due to the "imperfect art of contraception", Julia Stephen had three pregnancies in quick succession, giving birth to Virginia Woolf and her brothers? Yoninah (talk) 21:44, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually the whole point was to introduce Virginia Woolf's quote (did what they could to prevent me) and indicate that with better family planning available there would have been no Virginia Woolf! This fits in with placing this on International Women's Day. We could de-emphasise the brothers if you think that would be more focused? Michael Goodyear (talk) 21:57, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * ALT1b: ...that despite doing "what they could to prevent me", Julia Stephen became pregnant with Virginia Woolf due to the "imperfect art of contraception"? Sources: Woolf (1940) A Sketch of the Past p. 127; Bell (1972) Virginia Woolf: A Biography p. 18
 * Grammatically, mentioning Julia Stephen immediately after the comma makes it look like "me" refers to Stephen. Yoninah (talk) 22:00, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg The hook I passed was perfectly clear. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:03, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Symbol question.svg No, it isn't. The "prevent me" quote in ALT1 sounds like it's referring to Stephen. Yoninah (talk) 22:58, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg No, it's in quotes, so there's no confusion. Oh dear. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:01, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm an English major, and I know this is not grammatical. I'll ask the folks over at WP:GOCE to explain it to you. Yoninah (talk) 23:14, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg I'm English. You do that.   But I won't hold my breath.  GOCE died a long time ago and this needs resolution in the next couple of days.  Do what you like, but this is good to go.  The Rambling Man (talk) 23:17, 3 March 2018 (UTC) The Rambling Man (talk) 23:16, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * What is your mad rush? In grammatical construction, the first thing placed after the comma is the subject of the preceding clause. In this case, "Virginia Woolf's mother Julia Stephen" is the subject of "despite doing 'what they could to prevent me'". If you want the subject to be Virginia Woolf, you should say:
 * ALT1c: ... that despite doing "what they could to prevent me", Virginia Woolf says her mother, Julia Stephen, had three pregnancies in quick succession due to the "imperfect art" of contraception birth control in the nineteenth century? Yoninah (talk) 23:21, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * BTW "imperfect art of contraception" is not a direct quote from the source. I changed it in the article to the "imperfect art" of birth control in the nineteenth century. Yoninah (talk) 23:27, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Bravo. The rush is for IWD, as I thought you'd be well aware having stated that there was no chance of us ever getting a prep set fixed up in time.  Oh well...  The Rambling Man (talk) 23:33, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * When did I ever say that? (I haven't been online for two days.) We already have four prep sets loaded and ready to go before this. Let's get the hook facts straight and the grammar in place before approving this. Yoninah (talk) 23:41, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Oh dear I had no idea this simple fact could be so contentious. And yes we are all English, I suspect. I apologise, it seems I misquoted, the source says "but contraception was a very imperfect art in the nineteenth century"
 * ALT1d: ...that despite Julia Stephen doing "what they could to prevent me", since "contraception was a very imperfect art in the nineteenth century" Virginia Woolf was born in 1882.   Michael Goodyear (talk) 14:05, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * IMO ALT1d is clunky. It's also not clear who Julia Stephen is, and the quote at the end is overlong and should be paraphrased. It's enough to say "imperfect art". What do you think about ALT1c? Yoninah (talk) 16:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to use two very pertnent quotes to make the point that we very nearly did not have Virginia Woolf, a point she herself was at pains to make. It's an important dilemma around women's reproductive rights, for IWD
 * ALT1e: ...despite doing "what they could to prevent me", Virginia Woolf's mother Julia Stephen became pregnant since "contraception was a very imperfect art"  Sources: Woolf (1940) A Sketch of the Past p. 127; Bell (1972) Virginia Woolf: A Biography p. 18 Michael Goodyear (talk) 20:31, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, ALT1e is better. But the first quote is from Virginia Woolf. The second quote is from a book. We try not to quote a string of words that can easily be paraphrased. If we just put quotes around "very imperfect art" it will stand out more. And contraception is not an imperfect art; the point was it was imperfect in the 19th century. So I would suggest tweaking it this way:
 * ALT1f: ... that despite doing "what they could to prevent me", Virginia Woolf's mother Julia Stephen became pregnant, since contraception was a "very imperfect art" in the 19th century? Yoninah (talk) 21:00, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Well obviously contraception was supposed to refer to the time period mentioned, but I tried to keep it short. I can accept that but I would still prefer to place quotes around the words, since they are not actually a paraphrase, simply unquoted. I added 'again' for emphasis - how about
 * ALT1g: ....that despite doing "what they could to prevent me", Virginia Woolf's mother Julia Stephen became pregnant again since "contraception was a very imperfect art" in the 19th century? Sources: Woolf (1940) A Sketch of the Past p. 127; Bell (1972) Virginia Woolf: A Biography p. 18 Michael Goodyear (talk) 22:47, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg OK, ALT1g reads well, and the way it's written, I don't attribute the second quote to Woolf. ALT1g hook refs verified and cited inline. I readjusted the article so the second quote appears there. Rest of review per The Rambling Man. Good to go. Yoninah (talk) 23:01, 4 March 2018 (UTC)