Template:Did you know nominations/LGBT-free zone

{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|Talk| 
 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 16:17, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

{{DYK conditions}} {{DYK header|LGBT-free zone}} {{DYK nompage links|nompage=LGBT-free zone|LGBT-free zone}} {{main page image|image=Poland LGBT zones July 2019 Counties and Provinces.png|caption=Map of Poland, provinces and counties declared as LGBT-free zones marked|width=133x150}} ** ALT1:... that as of July 2019, 31 LGBT-free zones have been declared in Poland, including four south-eastern Voivodeships? ... WaPo: contains map with Voivodeships marked + "Activists have counted around 30 such declarations so far, including one in the region where the city of Kielce is located", "Regional party officials have since pushed to declare cities and even entire provinces in the country’s conservative southeast “LGBT-ideology free”". The precise number of 31 (instead of around 30) + list of Voivodeships is present in this Polish language source. quote: "Jak informowała w zeszłym tygodniu „Wyborcza”, na razie dokument podpisało 31 samorządów, w tym m.in. sejmiki województw małopolskiego, podkarpackiego, świętokrzyskiego i lubelskiego" (source is from 19 July 2019, referring to last week - so mid-July).
 * ... that the declarations of LGBT-free zones in Poland have been compared to Nazi-era Judenfrei (free of Jews) declarations? ... Sources: - {{tq|"Nei giorni scorsi una trentina di municipalità e un'assemblea regionale si erano orgogliosamente dichiarati "Lgbt-free", liberi dalla cultura Lgbt. Concetto che evoca sinistramente il termine "Judenfrei" coniato da Goebbels nel Terzo Reich per Germania e paesi europei occupati. Un prefetto aveva anche premiato e lodato in pubblico queste autorità locali."}},  - {{tq|"Viele Nutzer in sozialen Netzwerken verglichen das Vorhaben mit plakativen antisemitischen Botschaften aus der Nazi-Zeit. Ein Vertreter der Partei des schwulen Politikers Robert Biedron stellte auf Twitter etwa einem Bild des Stickers ein Bild der Synagoge in der polnischen Stadt Bydgoszcz (Bromberg) gegenüber, an das die Nazis ein Transparent mit dem Aufdruck "Diese Stadt ist judenfrei" angebracht hatten."}},  - {{tq|"The 'LGBT-free zones' sound too close to the Nazis' Judenfrei - free of Jews"}},  - {{tq|"Paweł Rabiej, the deputy mayor of Warsaw, said he would file a complaint about the stickers to the prosecutor's office. "German fascists created Jew-free zones," he tweeted.}}
 * ALT2:... that as of August 2019, around 30 LGBT-free zones have been declared in Poland, including four south-eastern Voivodeships? ... WaPo: contains map with Voivodeships marked + "Activists have counted around 30 such declarations so far, including one in the region where the city of Kielce is located", "Regional party officials have since pushed to declare cities and even entire provinces in the country’s conservative southeast “LGBT-ideology free”". Also: this Polish language source. quote: "Jak informowała w zeszłym tygodniu „Wyborcza”, na razie dokument podpisało 31 samorządów, w tym m.in. sejmiki województw małopolskiego, podkarpackiego, świętokrzyskiego i lubelskiego" (source is from 19 July 2019, referring to last week - so mid-July). TVN24 - - "W ostatnich miesiącach uchwały przeciwko ideologii LGBT podjęło prawie 30 samorządów, m.in. województwa małopolskiego, lubelskiego, podkarpackiego i świętokrzyskiego oraz 10 powiatów i 12 gmin." Also Foreign Affairs from August.
 * ALT3: ... Liberal politicians and media and rights activists have compared Polish LGBT-free zones to Nazi-era declarations of areas being Judenfrei (free of Jews) ? Sources reporting or making such comparisons include: la Repubblica, Rzeczpospolita, TVN24, Gazeta Wyborcza,BBC, NBC, Deutsche Welle


 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Interstate 91

{{main page image|image=Judenfrei Bydgoszcz synagoga.jpg|caption=Judenfrei banner on a synagogue|width=133x150}} {{main page image|image=02019 1570 LGBT free zone, cursed rainbow, Gazeta Polska stickers.jpg|caption=LGBT-free zone stickers distributed by the Gazeta Polska newspaper|width=133x150}}
 * Comment: For the Judenfrei hook, File:Judenfrei Bydgoszcz synagoga.jpg is also possible (this is widely shared on social media when discussing the LGBT-free zones). If the map is boring, then File:02019 1570 LGBT free zone, cursed rainbow, Gazeta Polska stickers.jpg is also possible.

Created by Icewhiz (talk). Self-nominated at 15:19, 18 August 2019 (UTC).


 * starting review --valereee (talk) 18:48, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

{{DYK checklist

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 * newness     = y
 * length      = y
 * eligibilityother =
 * sourced     = y
 * neutral     = y
 * plagiarismfree = y
 * policyother =
 * hookcited   = y
 * hookinterest = y
 * hookother   =
 * picfree     = y
 * picused     = y
 * picclear    = y
 * qpq         = y
 * status      = y
 * comments    = ALT2 cited. ALT3's sources are cited within the article and are RS, but I'd suggest that for a DYK hook this controversial we'd want more compelling support. Approve for map image or stickers image.
 * sign        = valereee (talk) 18:48, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Serious POV issues

 * 1.The article gives impression that this is somehow a legal exclusion act.It isn't. It's just a meaningless declaration. Polish constitution bans discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and such acts violate Polish law.At the moment the article reads like there are some real exclusion zones-they aren't, it's just declarations during upcoming elections.
 * 2.The background section is missing the lead up to the events, which were very controversial in Poland-during some LGBT marches in Poland, there were activists performing mock catholic masses and showing imagery of catholic saints with LGBT symbols,,this was criticized not only by the traditionally christian parties but also some liberal groups and Jewish community in Poland.
 * 3.Also missing from the background section is that the main conflict over signing of the LGBT Charter was over inclusion of sexual education for young children that supposedly is in the charter.
 * 4.There was escalation in imagery and propaganda including mock murder of one of the bishops in Poland

Overall I am not sure the article is notable on its own-I believe it would be better to merge it with LGBT rights in Poland or create article LGBT rights in Polish Electoral Vote of 2019.Also as a personal disclaimer:I am a atheist, so I am a bit impartial to a lot of the above, but believe the article should be covered in neutral way with all relevant information included.


 * I might also add that the hook is based on very non-notable article and seems to be as POV'ish as possible. This is unfortunately in line with pattern on this article, and certainly should be avoided, comparing Poland to Nazi Germany is very fringe and most commentators don't do that.MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:25, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The rather obscure Polish media sources (as opposed to international coverage) do not seem to tie "controversial" LGBT actions to the zones - using them may be SYNTH (though if they do, and pass RS and DUEness - sure - could be used) - The Washington Post and others tie this to the Warsaw declaration. We have 4 sources comparing LGBT zones to Nazi era declarations.Icewhiz (talk) 03:02, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The rather obscure Polish media sources Dziennik.pl and rmf24 are one of the main media publications in Poland :) MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:53, 19 August 2019 (UTC)


 * ALT1 cited. ALT0's sources are cited within the article and are RS, but I'd suggest that for a DYK hook this controversial we'd want more compelling support. I'd like to see ALT1 updated to August 2019; is it still 31? I prefer the map image. --valereee (talk) 18:11, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * . Modified 31 to around 30 - as some sources, also in Polish, are using around 30 (after Gazeta Wyborcza reporting 31). I am unable to find a better estimate. I also suspect that August sources are repeating the previous estimate from 19 July. The difficulty in tabulating these isn't the "big" ones - e.g. the 4 voivodships (states), 10 Powiats (counties), and 4 cities are "easy" - they are very major and easy. But these declarations have also been passed in really small places like Łososina Dolna or Mełgiew - those are very local and harder to tabulate. It is also likely this is an under-estimate. If you prefer the map - map it is (my first suggestion). Icewhiz (talk) 06:11, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I have also update ALT0 to ALT3 - so that we clearly state that liberals and activists are making this comparison. I would posit that the fact liberals are screaming bloody murder (or judenfrei/judenrein) is a rather clear factual assertion. Wikipedia reporting on a POV statement, an interesting one (and a very widely made one), does not the properly attributed statement POV. Icewhiz (talk) 06:22, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Icewhiz, the map image is listed as Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported, I'm used to seeing 4.0. Are we sure 3.0 is kosher for DYK? --valereee (talk) 19:45, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I am pretty sure CC-BY-SA 3.0 is kosher (as would be 2.0). If this is really a problem I can create a new map (find a map with Voivodeships marked, highlight the relevant ones. The reason this is CC-BY-SA 3.0 is because it is a derived work from a pre-existing CC-BY-SA 3.0 map image that is used all over Wikipedia. Many images that have been uploaded in the past to commons are 3.0 or 2.0 - other than legal boilerplate - all of these licenses simply release the image to the public.Icewhiz (talk) 05:13, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * - I updated the image to also include Powiat level declarations. The image is now also CC-BY-SA 4.0 as I used a different Public Domain file (Powiat map) to create it. Icewhiz (talk) 08:22, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Icewhiz, thanks, I'm so dumb about image rights. If I don't see 4.0 I'm sitting here wondering if there's some reason, so I always ask. --valereee (talk) 10:15, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I second what has been said above by User:MyMoloboaccount. It is just a pointless declaration without any legal or real-life effect, yet the article makes it sound like it is something binding, excluding, almost state-sanctioned. At best, this topic should be merged into the main article of LGBT rights in Poland. Last but not least, the original hook is as strongly POV as it gets. - Darwinek (talk) 21:44, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Mainstream reliable sources disagree - with wide international coverage. Adam Bodnar, the Polish Ombudsman, disagrees as well - and does the Polish Society of Anti-Discrimination Law. Icewhiz (talk) 06:03, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The only think I have left is the pride march section -- I posted at the bottom of the neutrality section on the article talk; I noted there that we probably need someone somewhere in a reliable source making a direct connection between the declaration and the marches; otherwise including that section in the article could represent original research. Sorry to be having this convo in two places; it just seemed like the neutrality question was going to be big enough and important enough to the article that it needed to be dealt with there so it would stay in the talk history. --valereee (talk) 10:23, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * 3 out of 4 there have a tie-in to the zones. WaPo for Kielce, ties the zone repeatedly - and says (as do we) that Kielce is in a zone. Likewise for Białystok - source states it is in a zone. Rzeszow (also within a zone) led to an attempt to have the city itself declared a zone on the city level. I need to get Plock tied - or cut it out - I removed Plock until I get a better source with a tie-in. Icewhiz (talk) 10:49, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure the fact a gay event is held in a lgbt-free zone and provokes a violent response provides enough of a link. To me, having this section is implying there's some sort of link. Like, holding the march was a response to the declaration of the zone, or the violent response was caused by the declaration of the zones, or something like that. Otherwise any gay-related event or response to that event could be added to this article. But I'm not finding anyone saying that explicitly that the marches were related to the zones. They're happening at the same time; that's not really enough, I don't think, unless someone else is explicitly connecting them. The zones are of course going to get mentioned because the zones and the marches/violence are happening near each other in time. The NYT article is headlined Anti-Gay Brutality in a Polish Town Blamed on Poisonous Propaganda, which seems to explicitly say the violent response to the marches is caused by the general atmosphere of growing intolerance of gays. But I'm not sure that specifically is saying the marches/violent response to the marches and the zones have anything to do with one another. The marches might belong in another article about violent reactions to growing anti-gay propoganda in Poland, but unless we can connect either the marches themselves or the violence to the declaration of the zones, unless someone is specifically saying something like, "After the zones were declared, several groups helds marches in these towns in response to the declarations of the zones" or "The declaration of the zones emboldened anti-gay protesters, who became violent" I don't think the marches belong in the article. It feels like OR to me unless someone else is making that explicit connection. These violent protests deserve coverage, but I'm wondering if it needs to be in Violent response to anti-gay propaganda in Poland or something, with the zone declarations as just one part of the background section describing the growing church and state anti-gay propaganda. I'm willing to continue discussing, but right now it feels like OR to me. --valereee (talk) 14:19, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I intend to writeup at least the one significant pride march as a standalone. For for the 3 presently in the article - in Rzeszow - there an attempt to pass a zone (on the city level, the province already was (or is now at least) in response to the planned march (and most of our coverage is on that). I will look for stronger links for the other two (Białystok and Kielce) - I suspect I will find some. I am cutting them out of the article provisionally until I establish stronger sources for the link. diff - removal.Icewhiz (talk) 14:51, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Great, that'll do it for that one! I agree, that one is directly connected. The attempt to declare the zone is being called a direct response to the application for the permit to hold the march. I think that's the balance of it for me. --valereee (talk) 14:57, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree that the Judenfrei hook is inapproppriate. When a place was declared "Judenfrei", that meant it had undergone a state-sanctioned ethnic cleansing by mass arrests and deportation, typically followed by incarceration and murder. Clearly that isn't going on in these "zones" if I'm reading the article correctly. I don't think we should quite deceive our readers like that. Besides, the new variant of the hook is not interesting. "(Liberal/conservative) media and X activists compare Y to Nazism/genocide" - haven't we heard that before. Better to state the facts as they are; the article title is scary enough already.  Daß &thinsp;  Wölf  12:19, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

for ALT2 and the map image or stickers image. --valereee (talk) 15:00, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your help! Slight preference here for map, but no objection to stickers if promoter wants to switch. Icewhiz (talk) 15:35, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

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