Template:Did you know nominations/LifeRing Secular Recovery


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:35, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

LifeRing Secular Recovery

 * ... that LifeRing Secular Recovery has online as well as face-to-face meetings and email support groups, for people trying to beat alcohol and drug addiction without religion? Source: "LifeRing now has face-to-face meetings in the United States, Canada and Europe. There are also online meetings and e-mail support groups." http://www.the-alcoholism-guide.org/help-for-alcoholics.html  "Help for Alcoholics" from The Alcoholism Guide. "LifeRing has a chat room, email list, and an online forum that provide additional support to its members" http://www.epreventions.com/resources/mutual_support_groups.php  "In short, we are sober, secular, and self-directed." http://lifering.org
 * Reviewed: Sudhindranath Kumar
 * Comment: Recovery self help is a positive thing to feature on the front page. *Edit: might this be a good one for January after the Christmas and New Year party excesses?

5x expanded by Mramoeba (talk). Self-nominated at 22:05, 29 November 2016 (UTC).


 * The article does not qualify as a x5 expansion, but I think this can be fixed fairly easily. The pre-expansion size was 2066 characters and the present version is 8525 characters, an expansion of 4.126...x.  The required size is thus 5 x 2066 = 10,330 characters and so 1805 further characters are needed.  I said this was fairly easy to achieve, and it is, because the text in the publications section is presently ineligible as a list, yet contains prose descriptions of the books.  Reworking this section out of list format should provide the extra characters without needing to write additional text.
 * The nomination was made in sufficient time.
 * A couple of referencing issues need to be addressed. Reference 24 is a bare url, which needs to be fixed.  There are in-text references to two court cases, which need to be changed to proper references.  Reference 7 needs to have the authors' qualifications removed.
 * File:LifeRing Circle2.png is marked as being CC-BY-SA 4.0 and Own Work of, but has a registered trademark symbol on it. The main image File:LifeRing Secular Recovery.png has a NFCC rationale, which makes me even more doubtful about the claim of a free license and own work for the ring-only image.  Though neither is used for the hook, I think this should be addressed.  Might need to consult an admin with broad image licensing experience.  If the ring image is allowed, it should have a caption.
 * The article could use a copyedit, the language is unpolished in parts and can be tightened. This will shorten the article, but that should not be a problem once the extra text from the publications section is added.
 * QPQ check shows no prior DYK credits, though there is one on Mramoeba's talk page. Either way, no QPQ review was required, though one has been provided.  FYI, Mramoeba, in future reviews, it would be good to include mention of a check for copyvio / plagiarism issues.  On which topic, I have done an Earwig copyvio check and the only issues it highlights are direct quotations and thus not problematic.
 * I think the hook is interesting – non-AA approaches get relatively little attention – but the reference provided above is weak, IMO. It comes from a website with a disclaimer about accuracy, and I would prefer a strong reference like pages 189-190 of Addiction: A Reference Encyclopedia by Howard Padwa and Jacob Cunningham, and published by ABC-CLIO.  I don't doubt that the hook is accurate but all the parts of it are not supported by direct references after the sentence in which each appears, which is a DYK requirement.
 * Symbol possible vote.svg Additional work is needed to address the above points, but none is particularly difficult. The expansion of the article is impressive and I anticipate this hook to be one which will attract attention.  Regards.  EdChem (talk) 14:38, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Firstly thanks to EdChem for such a comprehensive and helpful review. Apologies for not getting to the edits sooner as I was away. I have addressed the x5 expansion issue and reformatted the 'Publications' section which looks better now anyway. I have addressed the references, with the exception of the legal ones which I am still looking at. It seems a little complicated to find them free of charge but I will either locate a proper legal ref when I have properly looked into it, or reword it to show the refs are taken from a secondary source. Re the logo I have sent a message to a friend, I must admit this whole area I find complicated, if necessary it looks like I can re-upload a low-res logo image under a fair use license. I will wait to see what he says first to see if it's necessary. Copy edit done by me, particularly the lede which was a bit wordy. I think over time editors will iron out anything that doesn't read well. I'm mindful the subject matter is largely an American product and I write in British English so someone else may have a better phrasing in some areas. The suggested ref was a good one, and I used an additional piece of info from it lower in the article, thanks again. However in the hook I wanted (thinking that the DYK might be useful to someone looking for sobriety) to make it known that LifeRing has a strong online presence for people who either cannot or are unwilling to get to face to face meetings, and unfortunately this ref doesn't do this, and the website address in the piece is unfortunately the old one which no longer has a redirect. Next I'm going to look at 2 other refs I have and see if they are stronger for the hook. Thanks again to EdChem for taking the time to review. Mramoeba (talk) 10:26, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Logos now uploaded with, I hope, correct licenses, and new ref added to the hook. Mramoeba (talk) 10:26, 5 January 2017 (UTC)


 * My apologies for not getting back to this earlier. The early part of 2017 was difficult for me and, to be honest, I forgot about it.  Thanks to  for the note on my talk page reminding me of it.
 * I have posted to Media copyright questions for a check on the NFCC rationales.
 * The expansion now qualifies as x5
 * Refs 7 and 24 fixed
 * I'll fix the legal refs, I just meant that cases belong in the reference list and also do a quick ce - see my upcoming article edit, Mramoeba
 * I am uncomfortable with the addition to produce the sentence: " LifeRing encourages an experimental approach to maintaining abstinence from addictive drugs or alcohol and its members are free to incorporate ideas from any source they find useful, including other addiction recovery groups and meetings often take place in the same location as other 12-step recovery groups. " Experimental approach is open to misinterpretation (I think it refers to each individual tailoring the approach to their own situation, rather than mandating a single approach).  Other 12-step recovery groups makes LifeRing sound like a 12-step program, which is inaccurate as I understand it.  (Please advise if I am wrong about these.)  Perhaps something like: " LifeRing encourages each participant to tailor an approach to maintaining abstinence from addictive drugs or alcohol to his or her own needs and experiences.  Members are free to incorporate ideas from any source they find useful, including other addiction recovery groups.  Meetings often take place in the locations also used by 12-step recovery groups. "
 * The ring logo on its own needs a caption, and preferable a reference-supported comment about its use as a signifier to other members.
 * Getting closer. :)  EdChem (talk) 21:27, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
 * That suggestion reads much better, I can see what you mean regarding the wording, it makes it sound like a 12 step group, which it is not. I'm on a mobile device, I can't easily fix until I get back in a couple of days. Feel free to change that or I can do it when I get back, you sound busy!. Thanks for your help btw. Mramoeba (talk) 21:36, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I can see this has been done, looks good, and regarding the logos I have read the discussion and addressed the author line which was the thing missing (I think), and added a caption to the ring logo. If there is anything else that i'm missing can you let me know as i'm not sure what else there is to do. Thanks Mramoeba (talk) 21:35, 24 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for following the media copyright discussion and acting. Thanks also for adding a caption.  I note that info for that image states: "Primary logo with no words. I'm using it here as an additional identifier in the section about the LifeRing methodology. The logo represents the three principles with the three bands of colour and is placed here as a visual reference with emphasis. It's a logo usually used as an identifier of the organisation when the words are not wanted, ie for people who want to signify membership of the organisation but don't necessarily want to indicate it's an addiction recovery organisation, or as a graphic badge representing LifeRing."  If the symbolism of the three colour bands and the use as an identifier between members can be substantiated to reliable sources, it should be added to the article.
 * Having said that, it is not necessary for compliance to DYK rules, so...
 * Symbol confirmed.svg ALT0 is DYK-compliant and ready for promotion. EdChem (talk) 03:29, 26 January 2017 (UTC)