Template:Did you know nominations/Mail bag, Mail sack, Mail satchel, Mail pouch, Catcher pouch, Pony Express mochila, Portmanteau (mail)

Mail bag, Mail pouch, Mail sack, Mail satchel, Catcher pouch, Pony Express mochila, portmanteau (mail)

 * ... that a mail bag (pictured) was called a mail pouch, mail sack, mail satchel, catcher pouch, mochila, and portmanteau throughout history, depending on how it was used?
 * Comment: Note: This is a 7-in-1 hook. Reference can be found at National Postal Museum (section: "A note on vocabulary") + Pony Express Mochila. Created/expanded by Doug Coldwell (talk), 7&6=thirteen (talk). Nominated by Doug Coldwell (talk) at 11:48, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Mike Hoolboom
 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/A Year in the Wild
 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/St Mary's Church, Kirkby Lonsdale
 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Roman Chatov
 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Spanish expedition to Formosa
 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/South Georgia Survey
 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Dishonorable Disclosures
 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/All Saints Church, Hollingbourne
 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/John Henry Pepper
 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Charles K. Hamilton


 * Symbol question.svg A surprisingly interesting collection of articles. I found the hook a bit misleading, and I suggest slightly revised wording:
 * ALT1 ... that, throughout history, different types of mail bags (pictured) have been called mail pouch, mail sack, mail satchel, catcher pouch, mochila, and portmanteau?
 * I have not done a thorough review of all of these articles, as I got bogged down with portmanteau (mail). I believe that the article misconstrues the Oswego, Illinois source, and because I further think that a small-town newspaper in Illinois is a poor source for the kind of historical information in the article, I did further research on the early history of the U.S. postal services. From my investigations, I find no evidence that Ben Franklin personally gave this name to this kind of mailbag (that's the first place where I think the article misconstrues the source cited). It appears to me (although I have not substantiated it) that the name "portmanteau" may have been used more widely than in early America -- the practice in early America may also have been customary in other parts of he world. Regarding early America, it's not at all clear when the use of the portmanteau started. As for Franklin, he was postmaster general of America for the British 1753 to 1774, became the postmaster general for the Revolutionary Continental Congress in 1775, but gave up that role in 1776 when a new postmaster general was appointed. He died in 1790, so it is erroneous to imply that he controlled the post office prior to the Post Office Act of 1792. My research indicates that the portmanteau was an official mailbag that was locked and could only be opened by the postmasters at the local post offices visited by the mail carrier, who also carried an unlocked bag for some other unofficial types of mail, which included almost all newspapers (an exception being an official Congressional newspaper). The 1792 law provided that newspapers could be transported as official mail and that postal officials could not open any mail unless it was undeliverable, and it ushered in the establishment of an extensive system of post roads, but it's not clear that it ended the use of the portmanteau as the official mail bag. Some additional sources that I found regarding the portmanteau in early American postal use are this not-fully RS webpage and this book (search inside on the word "portmanteau") -- which indicates, among other things, that the portmanteau was carried "on the horse's rump". Further, it's clear that the image of the Gladstone bag included in the portmanteau (mail) article does not belong, as is not an illustration of a postal "portmanteau". I hope this helps with improvement of that article! --Orlady (talk) 19:26, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Removed the picture of the Gladstone bag. I will approve of ALT1, if the co-editor approves. We will address your issues bit-by-bit to make sure all your concerns are taken care of.--Doug Coldwell talk 20:04, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I concur. Thank you for the thoughtful critique. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 20:10, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Removed Ben Franklin info until we can get a better reference.--Doug Coldwell talk 20:14, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Orlady: Does that pretty much take care of the issues you brought up. We will look into the additional references you provided and see if we cann't add additional material from your references you provided. Meanwhile are we all set to go, since we BOTH approved ALT1?--Doug Coldwell talk 20:20, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Not so fast! I didn't review these seven articles. I merely looked quickly at the articles, in order, to see if they truly qualified as (1) different from one another and (2) not WP:DICTDEFs. I was pleased to discover that they are both different from each other and not DICTDEFs. Then I read the paragraph about Ben Franklin and thought "that ain't right", so I looked at the source, determined that it didn't support what the article said, and continued researching the topics of postal portmanteaux and the history of U.S. postal services. Based on that experience, I would want to look rather carefully at all 7 articles before approving the hook. (Before someone objects to the superficiality of my efforts, please note that I am neither looking for nor claiming QPQ credit here. I am "merely" doing my thing to help out.) --Orlady (talk) 22:05, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Orlady: I was able to use your critiquing and references you provided to expand the articles, especially Portmanteau (mail). Are you officially Reviewing the 7-in-1 DYK nomination and articles for possible approval, since you provided ALT1 and the extensive critique above to us?--Doug Coldwell talk 22:53, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * ALT2 ... that, throughout U.S. history, different types of mail bags (pictured) have been called mail pouch, mail sack, mail satchel, catcher pouch, mochila, and portmanteau depending on form, function, place and time?
 * Suggesting ALT2 to better fit the references.--Doug Coldwell talk 18:47, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: Note: This is a 7-in-1 hook. Reference can be found at National Postal Museum (section: "A note on vocabulary") + Pony Express Mochila.--Doug Coldwell talk 19:29, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Fine. but would suggest ". . . depending on form, function, place and time." (User:7&6=thirteen forgot to sign)
 * Changed ALT2 to suggestion above by User:7&6=thirteen of depending on function, place and time (198 characters for hook). BOTH editors involved in the 7-in-1 DYK nomination are in agreement for ALT2.--Doug Coldwell talk 23:26, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree on ALT2, despite its approaching the max character count. This is an extraordinarily nice series of articles with mass appeal; kudos to Doug Coldwell et al! Incidentally, I edited '' to redirect to 'Pony Express mochila' (after moving the unsourced, orphaned article which was previously there to 'Mochila Inc.'). -- →gab  24 dot  grab← 17:04, 14 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol possible vote.svg It's past my bedtime, and I have not completed my reviews. I am reporting partial results in case the creators have time to deal with this before I get back to it. Although these articles are represented in the hook and in the articles as being generically about mail bags, most of them are  about mail bags in the US postal system; a few of the articles contain limited discussion of other mail systems, but some lack even that. Article globalization is not a requirement for DYK, but the pretension of the hook about "form, function, place and time" is not justified by the extremely parochial content of the articles.  Here are some additional comments about three of the articles (more to follow):
 * Mail pouch and Mail sack both seem to be "padded" with extensive descriptions of the USPS definitions of various mail classes. It is not obvious that the details of the current US definitions of (for example) first class mail add information value to these articles. However, it appears that without this detail Mail sack would not pass the 1500-character threshold. Additionally, both of these articles are very US-centric.
 * Mail satchel has extensive close paraphrasing of this USPS document. (USPS content is not PD-US, AFAIK.) In addition, the article is exclusively about U.S. usage (indeed, it is narrowly focused on the U.S. Postal Service, without addressing any uses before the USPS was formed. --Orlady (talk) 05:09, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Mail satchel was completely rewritten. No close paraphrasing.
 * Mail pouch is not "padded" as the use of pouches depends on the type of mail. There is over 3,700 characters in the text, so this is not even close to the 1500 character cut off. That is equally true of Mail satchel. While it may not be obvious to you that the definitions of the type of mail add to the article, as someone who works with the Postal Service on a regular basis, I would say that all mail is not fungible, and it has to be treated discretely and differently. The differences in security needs and handling are integral to the different kinds of containers being used, and that is precisely the point of these articles. That is part of the reason why they have different postal rates.
 * In any event, Mail Pouch has well over 4,000 characters in the text. Much of it is specifically related to mail pouches used around the world. As the emperor once said, the problem is that there are too many notes. Surely that is no reason to reject the DYK. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 13:56, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry that I haven't gotten back to this collection of articles, but I'm glad to see the rewrite of Mail satchel. As for article length, I never suggested that mail pouch would be too short without the details of the current USPS mail classification system. It's mail sack that looks like it might be too short without those details. That article is only 2900 characters of prose, of which about half consists of descriptions of the postal rate classes. Mail pouch does have have a little bit of content that is not specific to the United States (i.e. two sentences about Australia), but I can't say the same thing for mail sack and mail satchel.
 * On the subject of countries that aren't the United States, as well as the portmanteau (mail) article, someone might be interested in (1) this piece on the establishment of postal service in England in 1635, including the use of the word portmanteaux to refer to the sealed bags in which mail was transported between towns, and (2) this historical account of the postal system in Jamaica, including some issues of security for mail bags. --Orlady (talk) 04:09, 4 September 2012 (UTC) And here's an image (nonfree) of a Norwegian mail satchel (the British postal Flickr page has many images of postal "sacks", "bags", "bundles", etc.). --Orlady (talk) 04:25, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Orlady for the ideas. I was able to expand the "mail bag" and "portmanteau" articles.--Doug Coldwell talk 20:48, 4 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Request a specially timed appearance (per Template talk:Did you know): The Pony Express was decommissioned on October 26, 1861, an anniversary already mentioned at October 26 and just a few weeks from now. I suggest including the Pony Express on that date's 'Main Page' (see WP:OTD and Selected anniversaries/October 26) and holding this DYK until that date (ideally, using an image more closely related to the Pony Express). -- →gab  24 dot  grab← 17:04, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * As far as I am concerned, this proposal sounds good to me - as long as the co-editor User:7&6=thirteen approves.
 * I agree. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 21:54, 14 September 2012 (UTC)


 * ALT2 ... that, throughout U.S. history, different types of mail bags have been called mail pouch, mail sack, mail satchel, catcher pouch, mochila saddle mailbag (pictured), and portmanteau depending on form, function, place and time? --Doug Coldwell talk 19:51, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Need a tick that the 7 articles have been approved. A possible picture could be "Mochilla saddle mailbag" presented.
 * Reference for the 7-in-1 hook can be found at National Postal Museum (section: "A note on vocabulary") + Pony Express Mochila.


 * Symbol possible vote.svg All articles are long enough and new enough; all have sufficient footnotes. Hook fact appears in the article mail bag and is supported by cited source.
 * However, all of the articles are unabashedly US-centric. The US focus is acceptable for catcher pouch and Pony Express mochila, as these types of bags are unique to the United States, but not for the other articles. I placed "globalize" templates on most the other articles. If it is not possible to provide a global perspective, the articles need to be revised to clearly indicate that they are about a particular type of bag as used in the United States, and the hook should be revised to start "... that, throughout U.S. history..."
 * In the article Pony Express mochila, I found instances of too-close paraphrasing of this source. I did not find any problems in my spot-checking of catcher pouch. I did not check all 7 of the articles for close paraphrasing. However, because earlier I found a similar issue with Mail satchel (now resolved), I suggest that the article creator look over all of the articles for possibly copyvio issues when editing them to address the "globalize" issues. When the articles are re-reviewed, there shouldn't be any copyvio problems left. --Orlady (talk) 04:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Added "U.S. to Alt 2. Coauthor agrees. Globalizing these is problematical, as there are not a lot of on line English language sources that do that. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 12:02, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Tidbits:
 * 1) New Zealand's postal service offers the "International Air Satchel" for transport of large amounts of international mail. My quick skim of the description of this service leads me to think that it may be similar to the US Postal Service's use of pouches, as described in Mail pouch.
 * 2) Australia Post offers a prepaid parcel post service in containers called "satchels".
 * 3) Some terms, such as "pouch", appear to have had different meanings in the U.S. in 1903, per this report, than they do under the current USPS regulations that are the focus of the discussion in most of these articles. --Orlady (talk) 14:49, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you Orlady. We'll go to work on that right away.--Doug Coldwell talk 16:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Orlady - did your suggestions. See below.
 * 1) This went under Mail sack
 * 2) This went under Mail sack
 * 3) This went under Mail pouch
 * Orlady - thanks for ideas on how these articles could be improved.--Doug Coldwell talk 13:45, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I've corrected and edited the citations to address these issues, and to take care of the Easter eggs hidden by Orlady. Also found a couple of better citations.  <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 15:11, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol redirect vote4.png Anything happening here? I hope no one has gone postal over this DYK.... --PFHLai (talk) 17:15, 10 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol redirect vote4.png You meant Going postal? We went and 'post holed' about postal, but it can't be that serious. Can it? <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 17:25, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Symbol question.svg Three articles have "worldview" tags and many look oversectioned. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:19, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * None have "worldview" tags, as they all have worldwide views. See Talk pages. Is "oversectioned" a reason for denying a DYK? Can you give some examples, so that we may improve on them to address your concerns. What is the maximum amount of "sections" an article can have and still qualify for a DYK?--Doug Coldwell talk 15:05, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Die Entführung aus dem Serail There may not be an actual standard, but I know it when I see it. Persons who consider getting involved in laboriously creating articles, and seeking a DYK may be advised to be aware of the fine print. Caveat emptor. <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 16:25, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "None have 'worldview' tags"... of course, not when you remove each one. I don't think that the removal was justified because the text is still very US-centric. The galleries may be removed per WP:Galleries as they seem to be "a tool to shoehorn images into an article". Regarding the sections, WP:DYKSG D7 says "There is a reasonable expectation that an article—even a short one—that is to appear on the front page should appear to be complete and not some sort of work in progress." With mail pouch, for example, there are almost ten sections consisting of single sentences. That looks like a "work in progress". — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:36, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It would be rather ridiculous to have United States mail sack or Mail sacks in America, and without that option it is a tough ask to want globalized versions of such common objects for DYK. DYK is supposed to be for new articles, and no doubt over time these will acquire all sorts of interesting detail about mail sacks etc in Poland, the Philippines and England, and maybe even somewhere else .... Johnbod (talk) 00:37, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but that is not to say we should not try to at least recognise that there are countries outside the US. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:39, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree. We did manage to put in references to Britain, Australia, India, Canada, New Zealand, Poland, South Africa, and other countries. There is a limit to information in English language sources that deals with this subject. To the extent that we could find sources (and there was real effort to do that) other countries are mentioned. Indeed, you will find that other countries are mentioned and cited in these articles. Neither of the two main editors has been oblivious to the criticism. When suggestions were made, they were implemented. We can't make up sources,and have to make do with that which is available. We invite further input, and recognize that every article in Wikipedia is a work in progress, not a finished product. These are long enough, sourced enough, and informative enough to merit being put into the short DYK that was proposed. This takes up almost no space on the main page. Indeed, considered as a suite they are informative, and bring together a lot of interesting and potentially useful information. <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 01:02, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * References to those in which article though? Mail pouch is essentially all about the US. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:16, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Just added references and more world wide material to Mail pouch. <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 09:35, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting keep.svg It's a bit better. Passing this, but please don't be surprised if there are issues later down the road. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:45, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 09:47, 13 October 2012 (UTC)