Template:Did you know nominations/Melvin Bliss/Synthetic Substitution

Melvin Bliss, Synthetic Substitution

 * ... that the song "Synthetic Substitution" by Melvin Bliss, despite being sampled in over 94 songs, originally started life as a throwaway B-Side?
 * Note: Melvin Bliss is an expanded version of an article that was deleted about 30 months ago that User:Anthony Appleyard was kind enough to restore to my userspace; it would be a miscarriage of justice if I claimed it was my own. Synthetic Substitution I wrote from scratch.

2x expanded and sourced (BLP) by Launchballer (talk). Self nominated at 08:18, 13 May 2013 (UTC).


 * Symbol possible vote.svg Um, DYK requires that the articles each have a minimum of 1500 characters of prose. Currently, the song has 426 and the singer has 390. They will need to be expanded significantly from their current states. Chris857 (talk) 22:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I've expanded the song with examples of songs that sampled it; how's it looking now?-- Laun  chba  ller  09:29, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Song is now 1224, singer is 1140. Still short. Chris857 (talk) 14:51, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * How are they looking now?-- Laun  chba  ller  19:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The Bliss article is long enough, the other article is technically long enough but it looks to me like a case of deliberate padding as the list of samples should really be in list form not in prose form. Gatoclass (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Correct. I'd ran out of ideas on how to expand it at the time. The list has been converted into a list with alternative bulleting to shut the DYK checker up.-- Laun  chba  ller  18:22, 26 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Symbol possible vote.svg The Synthetic Substitution article has 1030 prose characters only: just because you're able to fool DYKcheck doesn't make that sample section anything other than a list. The article needs another 500 characters of actual prose in order to qualify for DYK, and it also needs to not be classified as a stub. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:49, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you, the latter article has been expanded with another section. Any better?-- Laun  chba  ller  20:15, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The length is okay now, but the article is confusing, and doesn't hold together. It reads like the two sides are a single song in the intro, and worse, the intro is entirely about "Synthetic Substitution", which is the notable song of the two, while the new Background section is only about "Reward", the A side which is not notable, and makes no connection to the rest of the article. As it stands, this is not ready for a main page appearance via DYK. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:29, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Rewritten, so the lead is about the single, the background is the first section and is about Reward, and then there is another section about Synthetic Substitution with a list of samples a subheading of that. What do you think?-- Laun  chba  ller  20:28, 5 June 2013 (UTC)


 * No, sorry, but that is totally inappropriate, you can't have an article about a song called "Synthetic Substitution" that devotes half its content to a different song. You need to delete virtually all the material about "Reward" except to say that the other was a B-side to it. Also, I really can't understand your difficulty with finding 1500 characters to write about Synthetic Substitution, I took a look at one or two of the sources last night and there looks to be plenty of information to expand it with. Gatoclass (talk) 14:12, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Then what do you propose the title should be? Reward (Melvin Bliss song), with Synthetic Substitution redirecting to Reward (Melvin Bliss song)?-- Laun  chba  ller  15:02, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Synthetic Substitution sounds like a much more interesting record than Reward, so no, I wouldn't rename it, I would keep the focus on the former, all you need to do is expand the existing info a little further. Gatoclass (talk) 16:17, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I've rewritten some parts of it. I can see plenty of information that relates to, say, history of hip-hop and Melvin Bliss, but very little that relates to Synthetic Substitution. Is what I've rewritten it into any better?-- Laun  chba  ller  19:50, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's much better, and well over the 1500 chars requirement. I knew you could do it :) I will review this one in the next day or two if somebody else doesn't get there first. Gatoclass (talk) 13:34, 9 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Symbol possible vote.svg Having taken a closer look at these articles, most of the sources are of uncertain provenance and may therefore not meet WP:V, so I'd be reluctant to approve on that basis. Gatoclass (talk) 09:50, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Uh, which ones? The only possibly dodgy ref is the blog on Melvin Bliss (and even that is an upload of a newspaper artcle!).-- Laun  chba  ller  17:53, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the delay in getting back to this. You have two solid references for the Melvin Bliss article, they are The Guardian and The Atlantic, but I am struggling to validate the other sources, since they mostly look like enthusiast's websites or some cases wiki-type sites that anyone can edit. Just by way of example, there is one site maintained by a "Syd Caeser" which is quite well written, but I have no idea who Syd Caeser is or what his credentials are. Gatoclass (talk) 15:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I've taken out the most blatant offenders; they are Discogs, the Music's Over (a Wordpress site, on closer investigation!) and IMDB. They have all been replaced. The Twitter source has been kept because it is his son announcing Bliss' death firsthand, the 'blog' has been kept; while the source page is useless, the image is a scan of a newspaper article which is very useful and while Whosampled.com is a borderline case; user-edited data is put through a moderators' filter so I consider it reliable. What's your take on the others?-- Laun  chba  ller  12:25, 27 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry to be taking so long to get back to this. I thought I would be able to continue the review this weekend but some guests are staying over which again is going to impact the time I can spend on this project. I'm not sure when exactly I will be finding the time to do some more editing, but I have made this review an editing priority from this point. Gatoclass (talk) 13:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, I have had another look over the refs and again have found it very difficult to verify them. The Atlantic and The Guardian are fine. Blues and Soul, Hiphopdx and Wax Poetics lack detailed information about their editorial process, but other evidence suggests they might be considered reliable enough. Geniusrap and Fleamarketfunk appear to be blogs, albeit written by individuals knowledgeable about the topic, but I have no way of verifying that. Whosampled seems to be a wiki and therefore not reliable. It's hard to draw a firm conclusion overall, but one thing I would say is that, given the substantial reliance on Geniusrap in both articles, you would need to provide some more info on why this blog should be considered reliable. Failing that, I wouldn't necessarily require you to remove the source, but I would say at least that any content so sourced could not be counted toward DYK's 1500-character minimum text requirement. Gatoclass (talk) 14:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Taken out the Fleamarketfunk and Whosampled sources, leaving just Geniusrap. What would removing the content sourced to Geniusrap leave us with?-- Laun  chba  ller  16:00, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Can't you work that out yourself? I would say, judging by the amount of text apparently sourced to Geniusrap, you wouldn't have much text left in either article, unless you could find a more reliable substitute source for the same info. Gatoclass (talk) 07:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It would appear, on closer investigation, that GeniusRap's source is the film, so I've changed the contents of the ref to point to the film. I'll do that for Synthetic Substitution as well. Before I go ahead and do so, does the infobox need to be sourced? I know that sounds stupid but rarely see anyone else do it.-- Laun  chba  ller  08:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What film? No, you don't need to add cites to infoboxes provided the info therein is sourced in the article text. Gatoclass (talk) 10:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There was a life story of him produced called "Synthetic Substitution: The Life Story of Melvin Bliss" which GeniusRap takes its information from.-- Laun  chba  ller  10:42, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, the film itself would have to pass WP:V, do you have a link to it? Gatoclass (talk) 13:07, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This (egotripland.com) and this (cratekings.com) seems reliable enough.-- Laun  chba  ller  15:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Symbol confirmed.svg Okay, this looks better now. Apologies once again for the length of time it has taken to complete this review, but next time, please ensure that your sources meet WP:V/WP:RS at the outset so we don't have to go through this again. Gatoclass (talk) 11:30, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Absolutely no issue whatsoever - this has taught me a lot and for that it was worth it.-- Laun  chba  ller  11:36, 18 July 2013 (UTC)