Template:Did you know nominations/Michael Roth (baseball), Jason Krizan, Cody Martin (baseball)

Finally

Michael Roth (baseball), Jason Krizan, Cody Martin (baseball)

 * ... that Michael Roth, Jason Krizan, and Cody Martin were named First Team All-Americans in 2011?
 * Reviewed: Adolf Grimme, Greta Kuckhoff, and West Cornwall Bryophytes
 * Comment: Should the hook also say it's college baseball, NCAA or Division I (NCAA)?
 * I'd say NCAA Division I with two separate links.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:46, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Created/expanded by Muboshgu (talk). Self nom at 22:03, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Reviewing.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Do these articles pass WP:ATHLETE?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:14, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * As of now, no. But there is discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports) to add being a First Team All American to the criteria. Aside from that, I think these three meet WP:GNG for their non-trivial coverage in independent sources. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:20, 24 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Well all three articles pass for length and age. The hook is sourced.  If the discussion results in these being Notable, the nomination can go forward.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:19, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Is that really necessary? GNG supercedes NSPORT, and these articles meet GNG. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:13, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstand GNG. It does not include routine mentions in articles about the team. It is for biographical features and such. Game summaries that document that so and so had a hit streak or a stat page saying they had so many of a given stat does not pass GNG. Every college AA has the kind of coverage mentioned in these articles. I am not convinced that they would survive AFD.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:03, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * These articles are biographies, and things like statistics and records are biographical information, so I'm not understanding your meaning here. What I see is "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" for these three players, which I believe mean they would stand up to AfD. I'm in no rush though, we can wait for consensus on NSPORT, which appears close to a done deal. Maybe in the meantime I can write a few more All American articles and fold them into this nomination. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:12, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's see where the discussion goes. Have you advertised it at WP:MLB?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:00, 3 March 2012 (UTC)


 * What's going on here? Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:43, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I remain hesitant to approve these because of the dubious notability.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:53, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The discussion linked above seems to have stalled. Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:55, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to revive it. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:14, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Tony, based on your idea that you should be named to two of the three All-America teams to pass muster, Krizan would make it but Roth and Martin wouldn't. I'll still fight for those two, for now anyway though. I just created Matt Barnes (baseball), who also made two of the three teams. Can I add that into this DYK nomination? – Muboshgu (talk) 15:46, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ping everyone who participated about the two out of three. Ask them directly if they would be willing to give a Support/Oppose decision. Then, we can revisit the status of this nomination and what it should include.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:58, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm scratching my head in bewilderment over the "two out of three" requirement. Reading these articles, I can't tell how many All-America teams each one made -- even the Jason Krizan article mentions only one All America selection. --Orlady (talk) 00:01, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll fix that now. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:29, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay, based on the voting that's gone on and slowed down, there is not consensus to add college baseball All-Americans to NSPORTS. That means these articles would have to stand on their own. After further consideration, I can see your point on Roth and Martin. I think Roth might be fine, but I'm on the fence about it. I adamantly believe that Krizan and Barnes are notable. So, I'm willing to withdraw Martin, while adding Barnes. I'd also consider withdrawing Roth, but I think it might still be worth keeping. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:32, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll concede Krizan.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:26, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * In all honoesty, I don't have a problem with having articles like this for guys in college. Several years ago, they use to have a rule that almost-notable college athletes could have pages. They had one year after graduating to meet pro notability requirements. I actually create a lot of football athletes that aren't any more notable than these guys. Based on the old standards, both Barnes and Martin would need to be called up to the bigs by the end of the current college baseball season or be subject to deletion. Roth would be allowable. Based on current standards, none pass WP:ATHLETE. The challenge is whether any pass WP:GNG.  I consider Krizan's NCAA record sufficient to get him by.  For any of these guys, if you can find sufficient high school content to make the case that based on the fact that a biographical sketch can be made from content in the media, I would allow any of them to be kept.  I.E., find a couple state championships, high school All-american, high school first team All-state mentions for each and it would tip the scales in my mind.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:05, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * P.S. If you want to see some non-pro athletes that I have gotten by GNG look at Jabari Parker and Ryan Van Bergen as the two extremes. Parker is considered a can't miss pro, while Van Bergen is likely to never be a notable pro. Obi Ezeh isn't one.  If you want me to support any of your other guys show me a high school sketch.  Maybe you can find stuff at ESPN HS (formerly ESPN RISE for upperclass college players).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:23, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's good advice. I added some more info on the high school careers of Roth and Martin.

As high schoolers, Martin played in a local all-star game (that was already in the article), and I added that he played for the football team. Roth, meanwhile, played for the basketball team and was named a high school All-American. I'll see what else I can add after my afternoon meetings. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:45, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol possible vote.svg Failed verification in Jason Krizan.
 * The Detroit Tigers drafted Krizan in the eighth round (257th overall) of the 2011 Major League Baseball Draft. He signed with the Tigers and made his professional debut with the West Michigan Whitecaps of the Class-A Midwest League.
 * This is sourced to:
 * The source does not verify "drafted Krizan in the eighth round (257th overall) of the 2011 Major League Baseball Draft". Nor does it verify "He signed with the Tigers and made his professional debut with the West Michigan Whitecaps of the Class-A Midwest League. Please check all three articles for close paraphrasing and failed verifications. I will be closing this DYK nomination as "no consensus to promote" if I see concerns in a subsequent review because the nomination has been open for a while now. Cunard (talk) 00:31, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I added a source for his draft status, and clarified the sentence about West Michigan to match the existing source. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:38, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I added a source for his draft status, and clarified the sentence about West Michigan to match the existing source. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:38, 23 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I also ask TonyTheTiger to review the articles again and nominate any of them he believes fail notability for deletion. The articles all pass Verifiability with sufficient coverage from multiple reliable sources. Whether the coverage is routine and the subjects thus fail Notability is outside the scope of this DYK nomination. Cunard (talk) 00:31, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Basically, you have one high school sentence for each player. What WP needs is sufficient biographical detail to feel like whether or not he becomes a successful pro, there was a time when he was a notable enough athlete that you could get a complete biographical sketch in the media. I was hoping you could at least come up with something like Ryan Van Bergen above. What I truly would want to support permanent notability is something like Trey Burke, Royce White or Jabari Parker. These are all articles that I have done. Basically, a guy who is a college All-American, in basketball or football seems to have a paper trail in the media. The results you are presenting suggests that they baseball All-Americans are a notch below in terms of notability.  Personally, I don't want to nominate any of these for AFD due to my own belief of notability.  I think they would generally be failed. I don't research high school baseball. Are there recruiting ratings like I have been able to find for basketball and baseball. A college guy that I have done that might be suseptible at AFD due to completeness would be Junior Hemingway. I really don't have much on him before college. However, I have figured out how to use AnnArbor.com, to find details about his college career. Basically, what I am trying to tell you by example, is you have to dig to find the content. I specialize in guys from Chicago and from the University of Michigan and have learned how to use resources covering those jurisdictions to find sufficient content that a lot of editors might have trouble building into notable articles.  The guys you are going to find press about most easily are going to be those playing in state championship games.
 * I'll look at Roth for example. If you want to convince me his article is a keeper, begin by showing me he is notable in the national press. Cite USA Today articles like these:, ,  (I found those using the google search term "Michael Roth" baseball site:usatoday.com). Show me some ESPN like these: , . Basically, you have to dig as if each guy is never going to be a pro. Try and fill in his story as completely as possible so that if he busts as a pro he has a chance of survival. I saw one of those talked about his father finding a new job. Mention that. Based on this search it looks like if you want to fill in his high school career you will need access to the Greenville News.  Clearly he got a lot of coverage, but you do not present that here. You have to work hard to confirm notability when it is not automatic. I assume all of these articles could be expanded, but that you have not figured out how to do so. I am not going to write these four articles for you. If you want them to be AFD proof, you have to fill them in.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:31, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * P.S. One region of the country where it is easy to fill in early career content is Baltimore. THe Baltimore Sun has great high school sports coverage that is easily accessible online. See Ryan Boyle for example. I found half decent stuff for Sydney Johnson too.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:37, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I see you have found a lot of the Greenville News stuff as I recheck your sourece. I can't believe that it is complete. Please tell me the details about his high school All-American career. I see an article mentioning his 2008 Rawlings Preseason All-American Baseball Team. You point to a 2007 article regarding his A-A status. Fill out all of his high school All-American details in the prose of the article. If I tell you Anthony Davis (basketball) was a high school All-American that is one thing. If I tell you at least 7 high school all-American teams he was on that is another. It is up to you to prove that the encyclopedia would not be complete if we removed your guy's article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:43, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Here are two Chicago hoops guys who never made it as pros that have pretty good high school depth making their articles seem more robust: Rob Pelinka and Kit Mueller.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:52, 23 March 2012 (UTC)


 * 2nd Opinion Request After thinking about this for some time, I realize that if I am not going to AFD these myself, I should treat them as if they are notable. Am I putting the editor through the ringer asking him to make the subjects' notability more apparent?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:47, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Reply: I could probably add more to their high school careers with a little more searching, but a lot of the articles that come up through Google News require subscriptions, and I am literally taking information that I can see in free previews. Also, comparing these three start class articles to Ryan Van Bergen, a GA, is unfair. I have no intention of nominating these for GA, not in the near future. Another issue with the comparison is that football and basketball amateurs, in high school or coverage, receive more coverage than baseball amateurs in newspapers. Regarding the national newspapers, Krizan has USA Today coverage, but coverage does not need to be in national newspapers to satisfy GNG. I'll try to fill them out a little more today, but I agree with the need for a second opinion. The good thing about this extended review is that one or two of them might be approaching C class by now, but I believe with Tony's prodding me to add more, all of these four articles (remember I asked to add Matt Barnes (baseball) upthread) should be sufficient for DYK. – Muboshgu (talk) 13:18, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not trying to coach you to produce GAs. I am trying to coach you to produce AFD-proof articles. In terms of GNG, national press carries more weight than local press. I view WP:RS on a scale and in terms of high school and college sports. USA Today and ESPN are 9s or 10s.  You can get GNG without them.  All the articles I have pointed to above are articles where the depth of the article would confer GNG.  College world series recaps are sort of routine.  Look at the articles I pointed you to. They show that the national press views him as a subject where you should describe his travails in Spain and his fathers employment.  You need more than game summaries for GNG.  I pointed you to all kinds of examples of more than routine coverage of college exploits.  Don't think of them as GAs, but rather fairly AFD-proof articles.  You have to do more than cover a couple of important game results and statistics in college. Fill out the article some other way. I don't do college baseball. I spent some time at ESPN HS last night trying to figure out how I would do a baseball prospect. They had a starting 9 (plus 25 others) feature and state-by-state teams.  I don't know if there are archives of these things.  Any All-American has some impressive results. The question is whether each deserves a permanent place in an international encyclopedia.  Any and all of your guys could be flushed away in a week at an AFD. Let's get a 2nd opinion and see where we are headed. The fact that I don't want to AFD these guys doesn't mean they should be kept on WP. I have a soft spot for college All-Americans.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:31, 23 March 2012 (UTC)


 * As this discussion has stalled to a halt, I have started AfDs for all three of the articles. I am not doing this out of a particular desire for them to be deleted, but I think we need to generate a proper discussion on the subject in the appropriate place. DYK is not the forum to decide if an article is notable or not, AfD is. Let's revisit this nom when the AfDs are sorted.  Harrias  talk 11:09, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * FYI see
 * Articles for deletion/Jason Krizan--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Kept. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:05, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Articles for deletion/Cody Martin (baseball)--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:21, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Merged. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:15, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Articles for deletion/Michael Roth (baseball)--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:29, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Kept--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:37, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Matt Barnes (baseball) not currently nominated.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Articles for deletion/Matt Barnes (baseball)--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:01, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Kept.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:57, 11 April 2012 (UTC)


 * (ec) I understand. Since noone was jumping at my request for a second opinion, AfD is probably the way to go. It is my hope that all three will pass, and then we can move forward with the DYK. Up thread, I asked to include Matt Barnes (baseball) in the hook. To include that, you should probably AfD it, too. (ec: I see Tony remembered that I tried to add it.) – Muboshgu (talk) 14:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

If one or more of these articles get deleted, then we simply remove the red link from the hook. How does that sound? – Muboshgu (talk) 19:51, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * An editor at the Krizan AfD just brought up a good point, his doubles record might make a better hook than being an All-American. So, if we decide to go forward with all four articles for DYK, maybe we should do two hooks:
 * Hook 1 ... that Jason Krizan set a National Collegiate Athletic Association record for doubles?
 * Hook 2 ... that Michael Roth, Matt Barnes, and Cody Martin were named First Team All-Americans in 2011?


 * Can we revisit this now? Krizan is kept, so can you give that the checkmark for it's own hook? Two of the other three have been kept, but it looks like Cody Marin may end up merged. The second hook could just be Barnes and Roth. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:47, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg the hook for Jason Krizan is good to go. Length and date both check out fine, and the hook is suitably referenced. Spotchecks reveal no copyvio or close paraphrasing concerns. Good to go.  Harrias  talk 14:47, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol question.svg Krizan promoted. The other three need review. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:28, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg In order to finish this off, can we promote Barnes and Roth, which were kept at AfD, while I withdraw Martin, which appears likely to close as a merge? – Muboshgu (talk) 18:35, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Never mind the need to withdraw, the AfD closed as merged, so now we're good to go with Barnes and Roth only. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:15, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you clarify how you propose to amend Hook 2 (debold or remove Martin)?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:26, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Remove Martin. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * ALT Final: ... that Matt Barnes and Michael Roth were named college baseball First Team NCAA Division I All-Americans in 2011?
 * Symbol confirmed.svgly, Length, Date and ref all good.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:47, 24 April 2012 (UTC)