Template:Did you know nominations/Monsieur Léonard


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 12:37, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Léonard Autié, Jean-François Autié

 * ... that Marie Antoinette's hairdresser, Léonard Autié (pictured), invented the pouf? His brothers worked as Monsieur Léonard too.
 * Reviewed: I started the pages originally in 2012 but Robert Allen deserves all the credit for the recent work so this is not a self-nom.
 * Comment: The hook is perhaps overloaded but it seems good to work in both pages to make this a double DYK. The Léonard Autié page was recently expanded 5x from 583 chars of prose starting 5 Aug while Jean-François Autié was expanded from a redirect.  I am a bit slow to nominate but my excuse is that I was busy as a volunteer at Wikimania so please excuse this delay.

Created/expanded by Robert.Allen (talk). Nominated by Andrew Davidson (talk) at 12:15, 23 August 2014 (UTC).


 * Symbol question.svg Interesting articles on good sources, offline sources accepted AGF. I excuse the delay. However, I would prefer two single nominations. IF you insist on a double, please word it as one hook with a question mark at the end, and give the name of the brother with an article. It's a bit confusing to have "brothers" linked to one person anyway. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:40, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment: I would suggest not linking to his brother Jean-François Autié, since he's less interesting (and he's in the hatnote). The hook might say something like: " ... that Marie Antoinette's favorite hairdresser, Léonard Autié (pictured), not only invented the pouf, but also founded the Théâtre de Monsieur, the first permanent theatre in France to present Italian opera the year round?" His founding of the theatre is interesting (the reason I worked on the article), and the combination of hairdresser and opera entrepreneur is unusual. --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Good idea. Please, as I can't review a hook I write, YOU word it as short as you can, preceded by ALT1: --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Hooks should not be longer than 200 characters and Robert's draft is a bit longer than that. It's good if they leave a lot unsaid as an element of mystery encourages the reader to click through to the article and clicks are the measure of success of a DYK.  Also, I still don't think we should forget about his brother.  Perhaps we can have a pair of parallel hooks which are displayed together:


 * ALT1a: ... that Marie Antoinette's hairdresser, Léonard Autié (pictured), invented the pouf and founded the Théâtre de Monsieur?
 * ALT1b: ... that Jean-François Autié was one of three brothers who worked as the royal hairdresser Monsieur Léonard and fled Paris to escape the guillotine?


 * Andrew (talk) 07:23, 17 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the suggestions which I renumbered. I prefer the first. (Many tried to escape the guillotine.) (No idea what we can do about the brother, a reviewed article. Perhaps ask at WT:DYK?) - We need a reference right behind the fact of the founding of the theatre. Assuming that will come, how about forgetting about the pouf, I had to look it up, which detracts attention from the subject. If I am the only one, let's get it back. I would like to see the "favourite hairdresser" (mentioned in the lead) sourced in the body, and say something like
 * ALT2: ... that Léonard Autié (pictured) was Marie Antoinette's hairdresser and founded the Théâtre de Monsieur? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:56, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I have reverted the alt numbering as 1a and 1b are intended as a pair to be presented together rather than as competing alternatives. I consider the pouf to be better as a hook element than the theatre as it seems more unusual and entertaining.  If readers do not immediately understand exactly what a pouf is then so much the better - an element of mystery is also good in a hook. Andrew (talk) 22:20, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I am a bit confused because a never heard about a pair, but now understand that it is about the two people. Sorry that I missed it. As you wish, tweaked ALT1b because I don't expect the two hooks to appear in the same set (please use a similar wording in the article as ALT2b about the flight):
 * ALT2b: ... that Jean-François Autié was one of three brothers who worked as Marie Antoinette's hairdresser Monsieur Léonard and fled Paris to escape the guillotine?
 * Symbol voting keep.svg ALT1a AND ALT2b, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:40, 19 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Symbol question.svg While I'm fine with hook ALT1a, the ALT2b reads as if all three brothers were Monsieur Léonard and all fled Paris to escape the guillotine. The problem with this is that there is nothing in the Jean-François article to indicate that all three did flee; only his flight is mentioned, and the third brother isn't mentioned in either article regarding a flight. Suggest a slight change, which Gerda can approve:
 * ALT3b: ... that Jean-François Autié was one of three brothers who worked as Marie Antoinette's hairdresser Monsieur Léonard, and he fled Paris to escape the guillotine? BlueMoonset (talk) 23:25, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Symbol question.svg ALT3b, thank you for improving, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:28, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Gerda Arendt, if you meant to give this a tick, you used the wrong icon... BlueMoonset (talk) 05:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Another thing which should be made clear for set preparers.... There are now two separate hooks – ALT1a and ALT3b – for two articles, right? If they go into different sets, make sure you use only the correct credit templates for each hook, and if you don't move them both to prep at the same time, don't close this nomination, but leave a note explaining which hook has been used and which is still pending. M AN d ARAX  •  XAЯA b ИA M  09:39, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Symbol voting keep.svg ALT1a and ALT3b, one to be used after the other, as explained above. Sorry about the wrong icon, a mistake in copying and not checking.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:02, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Note to promoters: these two approved hooks should go into separate sets, so as Mandarax says, please don't close the nomination after the first promotion—indeed, it may be safest to strike the promoted hook at that point, so it can't be promoted a second time. (Close the nomination in the usual way when promoting the remaining hook.) And be sure to use the correct DYKmake/DYKnom pair with each hook. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 14:56, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I moved ALT1a to Prep 3 and struck it from this list. I also removed the image for use in the prep set. Yoninah (talk) 21:31, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * ALT3b has been moved to Prep 1; closing the nomination now. 97198 (talk) 12:37, 22 September 2014 (UTC)