Template:Did you know nominations/Nicholas Pal Dukagjini

Nicholas Pal Dukagjini

 * ... that the Albanian lord Nicholas Dukagjini, the son of Pal Dukagjini, returned from Italy to his homeland in 1481, together with Gjon Kastrioti II, to regain his family's lands, conquered by the Ottomans?
 * Reviewed: 1966 Toro earthquake

Created/expanded by Empathictrust (talk). Self nom at 21:53, 6 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The article is new and long enough (2711 characters). Symbol question.svg The hook is too long (202 characters)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:33, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * ALT1 ... that the Albanian lord Nicholas Dukagjini returned from Italy to his homeland with Gjon Kastrioti II to regain his family's lands, which had been conquered by the Ottomans? Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:49, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I am afraid that it is not enough just to shorten the hook.Symbol question.svg The hook facts are not cited with an inline citation in the article.:
 * Homeland: There is no source which directly supports the assertion that Nicholas Pal Dukagjini "returned from Italy to his homeland". His homeland was around Scutari. He did not return to his homeland. In 1481 he returned to the region of Himarë.
 * to "regain his family's land": Sources say that he joined the uprising without presenting his motifs and aims.
 * His family's land conquered by the Ottomans: His family did not own land around Scutari. Pal Dukagjini was initially Venetian pronoier and later who joined Ottoman forces in 1457. On his own will. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:13, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Are there any other issues with the article, or is it just a matter of hammering out the hook? Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:28, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I will investigate if this article meets core policies and guidelines within next 24 hours.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:46, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Will answer these concerns in the next few hours. Please, give my this time as I'm really busy at the moment. Sincerely, Empathictrust (talk) 16:55, 9 May 2012 (UTC)


 * After some additional improvements made to the article, despite my delayed reply, I will answer the above queries. As for the hook's length, needless to say Antidiskriminator is right and thank you Crisco 1492 for the ALT1!
 * Yes, Nicholas Dukagjini returned to his homeland. Please, read the wikilinked Homeland. Nicholas' homeland was Albania, which, according to this map, in 1464 can be seen as, while other sources show this and this . I'm giving this examples just to show that Albania's existence is well ascertained at that time, and because I referred to the country as a whole for his homeland, regardless to its extent, which of course, is not that accurate in neither of the maps, since no fixed boundaries had been drawn. But even if we take the just the region of Dukagjini as his homeland, the statement you say falls down, because he didn't return to Himara, but to the mountainous region of Shkodër and Lezhë. (From the footnote in Albanian  I'm citing here, last part's verbatim translation: Meanwhile in Upper Albania were maneuvering the military forces of Nicholas and Lekë Dukagjini. They attacked the town of Shkodra, what forced Hadım Suleiman Pasha to send military reinforcements even in this area.).
 * Sources say that a reason why he and other nobilty/leaders came back to Albania, was in fact the restoration of their former principalities (principality of Dukagjini for Nicholas), as cited from . If other sources say otherwise, so as this reason takes undue weight, we can rearrange the hook.
 * Even though Pal Dukagjini joined the Ottomans in 1457 on his own will, his son Nicholas was eventually allied to Venice and afterwards he is noted for fighting the Ottomans during the first Siege of Shkodra in 1474. (See the footnote  and my verbatim translation of it: On August 9, 1474 the Ottoman army ceased the siege operations from Shkodra and during the evacuation they burned and destroyed everything, including the castle of Dagnum, after a strong resistance of its population, led by the brothers Lekë and Nicholas Dukagjini.). So it's not mistake to say his lands were conquered by the Ottomans. Empathictrust (talk) 08:51, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I suggest another hook: ALT2 ... that the 1481 return to Albania and the military campaigns of Nicholas Pal Dukagjini and Gjon Kastrioti II, indirectly contributed to the Italian liberation of Otranto from the Ottoman forces?
 * @Empathictrust: There is a rule which says:  The "Did you know?" fact must be mentioned in the article and cited with an inline citation . I emphasized that The hook facts are not cited with an inline citation in the article and then I specified what parts of hook were not cited. Most of them were not even mentioned in the article (his motif being to "regain his family's land" or "His family's land conquered by the Ottomans". --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:00, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The article about Ottoman invasion of Otranto explains there was a battle between Christian allies (which even included non-Italian forces like forces of Kingdom of Hungary) and Ottoman Empire. Therefore instead of Italians "liberating" (I doubt there was much liberty in Otranto in 15th century) it is more appropriate to use Christians?
 * The article meets core policies and guidelines.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:03, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Good notice! Why don't we change and simplify the hook's last part to "[...], indirectly contributed to the defeat of the Ottoman forces in Otranto?" Empathictrust (talk) 13:10, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. Please present it in form of ALT3.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:23, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * ALT3 ... that the 1481 return to Albania and the military campaigns of Nicholas Pal Dukagjini and Gjon Kastrioti II, indirectly contributed to the defeat of the Ottoman forces in Otranto? Empathictrust (talk) 13:35, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

OK for ALT3. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:38, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Note: was promoted with the following edited version of ALT3:
 * ... that the 1481 return of Nicholas Dukagjini and Gjon Kastrioti II to Albania, and their subsequent military campaigns, indirectly contributed to the defeat of the Ottoman forces in Otranto? —BlueMoonset (talk) 05:55, 13 May 2012 (UTC)