Template:Did you know nominations/Nikolaus Simrock

Nikolaus Simrock
Created/expanded by Dr. Blofeld (talk), Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Dr. Blofeld (talk) at 10:38, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
 * ... that Nikolaus Simrock's company published works by Ludwig van Beethoven, Johannes Brahms, Joseph Haydn, Robert Schumann and Felix Mendelssohn....?
 * Reviewed The Concert in Central Park


 * Symbol confirmed.svg - References formatted correctly, article of reasonable length, hook is okay. --Tomtomn00 (talk • contributions) 11:39, 28 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol question.svg As Gerda notes on WT:DYK, Simrock was already dead before Brahms was born, so he could not have published Brahms. The article does say "he", rather than the publishing house he founded, which is simply incorrect and needs to be fixed. The Mendelssohn citation gives a date in the 1840s for the work published by N. Simrock; if there was an earlier one published by Simrock himself, a new source and citation is needed. More disturbing, the citation for Schumann is actually a publication of music by Brahms; this will have to be fixed before the DYK can be approved again. (I did remove the phrase "the likes of" from the hook in the prep area earlier today; I've struck it here as it's just filler text, and shorter hooks are preferred.)


 * At the moment, the article can presumably only support Nikolaus's publication of Beethoven and Haydn. The later three (once Schumann has a new cite) have to be attributed to the publishing house he founded... or a completely new hook can be written. The article strangely mentions the founding of his house in 1793 and two publications immediately after it, failing to mention that these were pieces composed by Beethoven. (They were, weren't they?) That's crucial information, and could be the basis of a hook, especially if they were among Simrock's first releases. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:10, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Better?♦ Dr. Blofeld  21:56, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * A little. It was the company he founded, but it wasn't his any more when Brahms or Mendelssohn were published by it. The hook still mentions Schumann, while the cite for Schumann is actually for a work of Brahms based on a theme by Schumann, which is not the same as publishing one of Schumann's compositions. I've struck out the original hook; there were formatting problems as well as factual problems. Here's a suggested ALT that omits Schumann but keeps Brahms; you can restore Schumann if you find a new source that can confirm at least one of his own compositions being published by the company:
 * ALT1: ... that the company founded by Nikolaus Simrock published works by Ludwig van Beethoven, Johannes Brahms, Joseph Haydn and Felix Mendelssohn?
 * Another unaddressed problem is that the article still uses "he" rather than the company in the claim about Brahms. Please be sure to address all of my concerns above, in the article as well as in the hook, in your next round of edits. If you change the hook, please do it as a new ALT. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:42, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah that would be fine!♦ Dr. Blofeld  09:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Symbol possible vote.svg While the hook is now accurate, the article is not, and this nomination cannot be passed until the errors in the article have been fixed. Please post here when they have all been addressed. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:01, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Now we have an article on the company also, which published Schumann (new source), and we can concentrate here on the person:
 * ALT2: ... that music publisher Nikolaus Simrock was in contact with Beethoven and founded N. Simrock, publishing first editions also of a Schumann symphony and Mendelssohn oratorios? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:13, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * This hook unfortunately suffers from the same problem as the previous one: Nikolaus is the subject, so "publishing first editions" is presumed to be him, when the symphony and oratorios were all published by N. Simrock after his death. Might I suggest you stick with the Beethoven connection for simplicity? I've called them "friends"; if there's a stronger musical connection (colleagues of some sort) that could be added to the article, it would deepen the connection and could be added to the hook as well. Absent that, here's a possibility; I preferred "earliest publications", but if you want "13 compositions", then you can drop "earliest":
 * ALT3: ... that music publisher Nikolaus Simrock earliest publications included several compositions by his friend Beethoven? —BlueMoonset (talk) 17:22, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * May I suggest:
 * ALT4: ... that Nikolaus Simrock, a friend of Beethoven, founded a music publisher that printed the first editions of his and many classical composers' works?
 * - I count 148 characters, leaving space for a couple of other examples in place of the link on "classical". It may also be possible to get N. Simrock to 1500 characters and make this a double. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:13, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * (ec, make it ALT5 now, tend to have a different hook for the firm)
 * ALT5: ... that Nikolaus Simrock and the young Ludwig van Beethoven played in the orchestra of Maximilian Frederick in Bonn, and the firm N. Simrock published piano variations by Beethoven already in 1793? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:27, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * N. Simrock is now over 1500 characters, but I don't think it merits a separate hook. So can it be added as a second bolded hook here? Started by User:Magicpiano on 30 April, also worked on by Gerda and me. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:37, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Although over 1500 characters, N. Simrock is still a stub, which makes it ineligible for inclusion at the moment, though I doubt for long. It needs to be reorganized, with a proper intro and then two or three sections: perhaps one for the founding and Nikolaus at the helm, one for his Simrock successors, and a final one for after the firm was first sold. This would require a little more material, and the article would clearly be Start class once the edits are completed. You'd also need a new QPQ review for it to be added to the hook. I'm going to play with creating a new ALT this evening that includes both articles and as much of ALT5 as I can, but we may need to reduce the number of facts that can be included so it's catchy to readers. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:59, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I would go for a separate - not double - nom for the firm once it's improved, leaving this one as it is, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:01, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * As I say, I don't think N. Simrock merits a separate hook. Your ALT5 keeps the emphasis on Nikolaus; the article on the company can doubtless be further expanded by making clear who was published during different eras, but I still don't think it rises to the level of a whole separate hook on the composers the company published. Yngvadottir (talk) 22:24, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it's up to Gerda to decide whether she wants N. Simrock to be an additional hooked article, with the attendant review, or just a regular link. For now, here's a new ALT (which can be appropriate bolded if the decision is to add the second hook); I kept the orchestra but removed Maximilian Frederick. Another possibility is to delete "his friend" and use Beethoven's full name instead of the last name only:


 * ALT6: ... that when Nikolaus Simrock (pictured) founded music publisher N. Simrock in 1793, his earliest publications included piano variations by his friend Beethoven, a former orchestra colleague in Bonn? —BlueMoonset (talk) 15:23, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Fine with me as is. In a recent hook, the bolded article got 700+ hits, the unbolded one 2,500+, it really doesn't matter too much (and I want to make facts known, not collect credits ;) ). Added pic, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:46, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg I'm withdrawing my objections, since they've all been fixed. Since Gerda likes ALT6, I'm also striking out all earlier hooks. However, since I'm the one who proposed ALT6, even if it's based on earlier hooks, I shouldn't be the one to sign off on it. Can we please get a new reviewer to quickly vet the hook so the nom can be approved? Thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 16:15, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol confirmed.svg: hook checked out; good to go; but aren't the WoO 66 Variations based on Little Red Riding Hood (Das rote Käppchen) by Carl Ditters von Dittersdorf - surely there's some hook potential there! how about (will need slight amendment to the article if so): Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 17:46, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * ALT7 ... that Nikolaus Simrock published Beethoven's piano variations on a theme from the opera Little Red Riding Hood (pictured) by Carl Ditters von Dittersdorf?
 * Thanks for the offer, but it seems to say more about Dittersdorf than Simrock ;) ALT6 preferred, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:20, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Striking out ALT7 for clarity, and also commenting out the photo for it, ditto. Looks like this is a go! BlueMoonset (talk) 23:38, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Aw, spoilsports! Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 23:42, 3 May 2012 (UTC)