Template:Did you know nominations/Osvaldo Civile

Osvaldo Civile

 * ... that Argentine guitarist Osvaldo Civile made a cover art for his band Horcas, playing truco with the Grim Reaper, some days before committing suicide?
 * Reviewed: El Tigre Fault, Argentina

Created by Cambalachero (talk). Self nominated at 17:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC).


 * Symbol possible vote.svg The article and hook are confusing in places. The hook should make it clearer that the cover art depicts Civile playing turco with the Grim Reaper, rather than it appearing that they could be independent facts. The birth and death dates in the infobox of the article are messed up, and need sorting out. The article does not state that Civile drew the cover art himself, and being an offline source, I can't verify that either way. Further DYK checks not carried out.  Harrias  talk 12:53, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, the cover art was not a drawing, it was a set of photos of Civile playing truco with a man (the band's singer, actually, but that's too much info for the hook) wearing the classic hood and scythe of the Grim Reaper. I have fixed the article to clarify this point. Perhaps we may change "made a cover art" to "posed for a cover art" Cambalachero (talk) 13:40, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Given that, I would suggest the following alternative then, although the more accurate timing makes it a little less hook-y I suppose.


 * ALT1 ... that Argentine guitarist Osvaldo Civile posed for cover art for his band Horcas, playing truco with the Grim Reaper, a few months before committing suicide?  Harrias  talk 15:01, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: I may be misunderstanding the feedback here. I feel like we commonly promote hooks that are a little ambiguous. Is it truly necessary to explicitly state that he wasn't truly playing with the symbolic figure known as the Grim Reaper? If not, I would suggest:
 * ALT2: ... that Argentine guitarist Osvaldo Civile committed suicide not long after playing truco with the Grim Reaper? EricEnfermero  HOWDY! 12:02, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that the first hooks make it clear that Civile played truco with the Grim Reaper in the cover art. If we don't include that part, it would sound as if he was Dr. Strange or Thanos. Even someone who gets the point that he wasn't literally playing cards with the Grim Reaper would not understand in which circumstances did that happen. It was a cover art, but it could had also been a stunt in a concert, a parody in TV, etc. Cambalachero (talk) 12:59, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The first alt hook is acceptable, except that it was a few days afterwards, not a few months. Doing albums with imagery of death is a common thing in thrash metal (in fact, there was a grim reaper in the cover art of Horcas' first CD as well), the part that makes it hook material is that both things happened so closely in time. Cambalachero (talk) 13:07, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Regarding the ambiguous hook, the DYK Reviewing Guide suggests that it's actually good for a hook to contain a tease or only part of the relevant information. Am I misreading that? EricEnfermero  HOWDY! 13:17, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have added an extra ref in English to substantiate Alt3 which all comes from that ref


 * ALT3 ... that after Argentinian heavy metal guitarist Osvaldo Civile committed suicide, the papers showed pictures of him with the Grim Reaper?
 * 10 days and no movement....@EricEnfermero, @Harrias, @Cambalachero.
 * Can someone approve this new hook (alt3) which avoids the debate above and I think is more approachable. Length, age, size, hook, ref, paraphrase etc look good to me. Victuallers (talk) 18:06, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I think yours is now ALT3. I proposed an ALT2 above with my rationale from the DYK review instructions, but the discussion stopped when I asked a question about those instructions. I find ALT1 to be wordy and ALT3 to be bland, but I don't want to force my opinion on anyone. EricEnfermero  HOWDY! 00:17, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It is good for a hook to contain a tease or only part of the relevant information..... but asking questions delays stuff - are you OK with alts3?
 * Can someone approve this new hook (alt3) which avoids the debate above and I think is more approachable. Length, age, size, hook, ref, paraphrase etc look good to me. Victuallers (talk) 14:34, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I would prefer the 2. The 3 make it sound as if the newspapers made up the image after his death, which is not the case. Cambalachero (talk) 15:30, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg - Well thats me out. I cannot find the evidence for alt2 so I have created another alt and I can find evidence for but I cannot get this approved. Happy New Year - new review possible? Victuallers (talk) 16:03, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

I propose a variant of alt 1, with the mistake fixed
 * ALT4 ... that Argentine guitarist Osvaldo Civile posed for cover art for his band Horcas, playing truco with the Grim Reaper, a few days before committing suicide? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cambalachero (talk • contribs) 01:48, 2 January 2014‎
 * Symbol voting keep.svg Article is new enough and long enough and adequately footnoted. I don't see close paraphrasing (but I have to AGF on non-English and offline sources). I see a lot of issues with these hooks. The original hook and ALT1 don't work because the article doesn't indicate when the photos were made. ALT2 is inappropriate for that same reason and because it confuses fiction and fact. ALT4 can't be used because the article doesn't indicate when the photos were made. The only validated hook is ALT3, but I recommend minor rewording as follows (for more idiomatic English, as well as to include the detail of playing truco):
 * ALT3A ... that after Argentine heavy metal guitarist Osvaldo Civile death by suicide, newspapers printed photos of him playing truco with the Grim Reaper?
 * This is OK. Please use hook ALT3A. --Orlady (talk) 16:04, 13 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I have added the date for the Epopeya issue with the photos. It was the magazine for April 1999, and Civile commited suicide that very same month, right after the magazine was available. Have in mind that the photos seen in the newspapers are those same photos, so the hook should mention the photos original intent (an art cover for an upcoming CD), not seem as if the newspapers made up the photos after his death. See here, a newspaper report, and here for the cover of Epopeya: as you can see, it's the same photo. Cambalachero (talk) 18:32, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have uploaded the photo under discussion, so it's more clear. Cambalachero (talk) 18:48, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Symbol voting keep.svg The inclusion of the issue date and photo are enhancements to the article. I do not recommend changing the hook, however. The purpose of the hook is to induce people to read the article. It is not necessary for the hook to explain the entire history. --Orlady (talk) 19:52, 13 January 2014 (UTC)