Template:Did you know nominations/Palmiry massacre


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Miyagawa (talk) 22:24, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Palmiry massacre

 * ... that the Palmiry massacre (pictured) was one of the greatest Nazi crimes in Poland?


 * ALT1: ... that the Palmiry massacre (pictured) has been called a "Warsaw Katyn"?

Created by Dreamcatcher25 (talk). Self-nominated at 08:48, 14 April 2015 (UTC).


 * Comment. This is the author's first DYK, so I think we can relax the 5 day limit to include this well-developed article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:45, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Symbol question.svg The page was started on April 3, and I am willing to accept the extra 4 days (it's now a 7-day limit) on the nomination. The article is long enough, neutrally written, and well referenced with Polish-language sources, although I added an English-language cite just for confirmation in my language. QPQ not needed. Image is public domain. The only problem is that the first hook does not have an inline cite, and the ALT1 hook fact doesn't appear in the article at all. You must provide a source for calling it "one of the greatest Nazi crimes in Poland", and I think that the designation of "notorious" in the sentence The most notorious and the best documented of these massacres should be removed as POV. I added a few "citation needed" tags to paragraphs that lack them, per DYK rules. Yoninah (talk) 21:06, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I removed the “notorius” and I added some new sources. Now both hooks are supported by text and sources. I also find some Polish sources for the paragraphs which need citation as well as for the sentence about “one of the greatest Nazi crimes in Poland/one of the most famous sites of the Nazi crimes in Poland” (I treated both statements as equal). Regarding the last - there’s also a website in English but I’m not sure if this source is proper for Wikipedia.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 09:23, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * That site is ok, it's an official city of Warsaw tourist site, so it is the same level as a governmental website (regional, but still). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:30, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, the first hook is still not sourced; it is a sweeping statement that appears in the lead (and should be sourced if it stays). What IS sourced is:
 * ALT2: ... that a forest glade near the village of Palmiry (pictured) is one of the most famous sites of Nazi war crimes in Poland?
 * The ALT1 hook fact is sourced to a foreign-language source and is fine. Yoninah (talk) 10:42, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * OK. From my perspective, we can change it into e.g.
 * ALT3: ... that the Palmiry massacre (pictured) is one of the best-known Nazi crimes in Poland? -- or choose the ALT1.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 11:18, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * But ALT3 is not sourced in the article. Yoninah (talk) 13:15, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * "one of the most famous sites of Nazi crimes in Poland" and "one of the best known Nazi crimes in Poland" is not the same?Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 13:26, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * No. A "site" is not a "crime". Please choose ALT1 or ALT2. Yoninah (talk) 14:25, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * OK then, I prefer ALT2. I think it will be more understandable for non-Polish readers. However I think that in this hook we should change the current link to the words: "Nazi war crimes in Poland". War crimes of the Wehrmacht is a not proper link because Wehrmacht has nothing to do with Palmiry massacre (it was SS and OrPO crime). It would be better to replace it with Nazi crimes against the Polish nation or simply Nazi crime.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 16:16, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg OK. The reason I added that link to the Wehrmacht is because that's what came up when I clicked on your link in the lead for Nazi war crimes. I see that you changed the link in the lead, and I have amended ALT2 per your suggestion. Thank you for your patience so far. Since DYK rules preclude me from approving my own hook, I call on another reviewer to approve ALT2 and complete this nomination. Thank you, Yoninah (talk) 18:17, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

I think that the original hook, mentioning Katyn, was quite interesting. How about ALT3 proposed below? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:02, 28 April 2015 (UTC)


 * ALT3: ... that the Palmiry massacre (pictured), one of the best-known Nazi crimes in Poland, has been called a "Warsaw Katyn"?
 * Symbol question.svg I think it's interesting to you because you're familiar with Poland, but "Katyn" could also be sufficiently mysterious for Westerners to click on. But the part about being "best-known" is not sourced, as I mentioned above. Yoninah (talk) 10:16, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I must agree with Yoninah. It's very interesting proposal but I really can't find the source which explicitly quote that "Palmiry is one of the best-known Nazi crimes in Poland". It's usually said that Palmiry is one of the most famous/best known site of Nazi crimes in Poland.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 16:13, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg Reviewer needed for ALT2. Yoninah (talk) 12:13, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I've taken the liberty of revising the relevant line in the article (with the addition of a new source), which should hopefully avoid some of the problems cited above. "Notorious" seems to me to be more apposite than "famous", so I'd suggest the following hook, which is sourced to citation 55 in the article (Lukas). Prioryman (talk) 17:21, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
 * ALT4: ... that the Palmiry massacre made a forest near Palmiry in Poland one of the country's "most notorious places of mass executions"?
 * Thanks for finding that source, . The new hook works for me, but way you wrote it in the article, "one of the most notorious places of mass execution", is word-for-word from the source. Yoninah (talk) 19:27, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
 * That's easily resolved, it just needs to be cast as a direct quote from the source. I've modified the hook and article accordingly. Prioryman (talk) 22:36, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg OK, you could do it that way (I was thinking more of paraphrasing). I changed the quote to "executions" per the source. Hook ref verified and cited inline. ALT4 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 23:24, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Symbol question.svg what do you think about tightening the hook this way?
 * ALT5: ... that a forest glade near Palmiry, Poland, is one of the country's "most notorious places of mass executions"? Yoninah (talk) 23:38, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Personaly I still prefer the ALT2. The phrase "most notorious places of mass executions..." suggests that Plamiry was the Polish equivalent of Tyburn or Sing Sing. I think it should be clearly noted that Palmiry was a Nazi crime.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 09:40, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think "famous" really works in the context of a crime - in English, "famous" tends to have a fairly positive connotation, whereas negative acts or places with bad reputations tend to be described as infamous or notorious. Thus Sing Sing is a notorious prison, Tyburn is an infamous place of execution, etc. However, I take your point about noting that it was a Nazi crime, so how about a reworded hook along the following lines? Prioryman (talk) 11:34, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
 * ALT6: ... that a forest glade near Palmiry became "one of the most notorious places of mass executions" in Poland after Nazi war crimes were committed there?
 * Fine with me. Thank you.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 12:32, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg OK, great. A reviewer will still need to sign off the hook and article though. Prioryman (talk) 14:37, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Tweaked hook to reflect the fact that massacres took place there over a period of 2 years. Yoninah (talk) 14:40, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

You know, we could satisfy Dreamcatcher25's preference for ALT2 by merely changing one word. If you like this,, I could go ahead and approve it. Otherwise, someone else will have to approve ALT6, because I had a hand in writing it.
 * ALT7: ... that a forest glade near the village of Palmiry (pictured) is one of the most notorious sites of Nazi war crimes in Poland? Yoninah (talk) 14:43, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Problem is, that's not what the source says - Lukas describes it as one of the most notorious sites of mass executions, not of Nazi war crimes. (Don't forget that the Soviets also carried out mass executions in Poland.) I think that proposal would fail source verification, unfortunately. Prioryman (talk) 15:03, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg OK. New reviewer needed for ALT6. Yoninah (talk) 15:33, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Symbol voting keep.svg I can't see page 70 of the book on google books. Accepted in good faith. ALT6 hook engaging and cited to reliable source. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:45, 23 May 2015 (UTC)