Template:Did you know nominations/Patterns of Conflict

Patterns of Conflict

 * ... that Colonel John Boyd's Patterns of Conflict, a presentation on military strategy, became so influential that he was called out of retirement to help plan for Desert Storm?
 * Reviewed: Started review on Meta-emotion

Created/expanded by Maury Markowitz (talk). Self nom at 23:27, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Symbol question.svg Long enough, new enough, neutrally written and clear enough for this non-military reader to follow. The referencing appears generally adequate; it is rather dependent on Patterns of Conflict itself, but not over-much given the topic, I think. I corrected a couple of quotes, including one that seemed to have been mangled by a spellchecker, and found no overly close paraphrasing. The hook is interesting and not too long; I changed "paper" to "presentation" for accuracy. Unfortunately, although I can see the book referenced for the hook in Google Books, it's without page numbers and the hook reference (pp. 422–44) appears in any case to fall within the not really viewable sections. So could you please quote the relevant (parts of) sentences here? I will then be able to give this a check mark. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:10, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Try going into Google Books and looking for "boyd desert shield". That took me to visible pages that detail his involvement. The page numbers aren't visible, but that search gets you to the middle part. Can you get to those? Maury Markowitz (talk) 19:39, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Sadly, no; it shows me two digitized versions of the book, one of which has no previews, and the other, all I get is a snippet about Boyd flying to and fro to Washington and another snippet about his not speaking of his many meetings with Cheney. I am unable to see a statement that he was called out of retirement to help plan the operation. Dump me a few partial sentences here that allow me to connect those two dots; I believe you, but it's not showing me the relevant passage(s), only circumstantials. (Oh and by the way, about to hit the sack for a few hours, back thereafter.) Yngvadottir (talk) 19:58, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Amazon used to display the quote directly, but now I can't get it there either. Very frustrating!
 * Perhaps we should instead consider ALTs. Can you see portions that detail the re-write of the Marine's battle-playbook? Maury Markowitz (talk) 16:44, 20 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Wait, try this on for size. I *believe* it's p 420... "when he pulled out book after book...praising his work" [snip] "Several weeks after...". Is that enough? The context above mentions him in retirement. Maury Markowitz (talk) 16:47, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * And if it's not, what about this ALT: "... that he was personally asked by Dick Cheney to help plan Desert Storm?"


 * This is closer and probably as close as we're going to get. To complete the connection for the original hook, can you find me a quote saying when he retired, or better yet, that he had already moved to Florida when Cheney called him ... possibly the sentence before that snippet? I would add one or both of those URLs to the article reference at that point, but I don't know how to do so with the referencing system you're using.
 * I think that's a more interesting hook, but was going to suggest myself
 * ALT1 ... that Colonel John Boyd`s Patterns of Conflict, a presentation on military strategy, so impressed General Trainor that it led to a change in the US Marines` war-fighting strategy?
 * The first hit here may support this, or a better one may be hiding in there; in any event a reference would need to be added to that sentence in the article. Alternatively, and again with the need for adding a ref to the end of the sentence, the rewriting of the curriculum at the Amphibious Warfare School; pity that's a redlink so couldn't be linked in the hook. For that I can't find a page hit to recommend, however. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:47, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Too tame IMHO. How about page 7, '"Supporters of his work claim that John Boyd's Patterns of Conflict makes him the most influential military thinker since Sun Tzu Wrote Art of War?" Maury Markowitz (talk) 13:57, 23 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Here, you mean? and like this:
 * ALT2 ... that supporters of his work claim that Colonel John Boyd`s Patterns of Conflict makes him the most influential military thinker since Sun Tzu wrote The Art of War?
 * That would also require addition of the citation to the article, and in this case also of a more obvious statement in the body - I see only the more general statement in the lead, sourced to the inside cover. But yup, that would work. I'm honestly not sure which is more interesting. (I could swear I've seen the same claim made for Clausewitz '-) .) So how about this - add that more precise statement, with a ref, and also the ref for ALT1, and I'll check it off for both alternate hooks and whoever promotes it can decide? Yngvadottir (talk) 18:31, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I know, I think the original is more punchy. But I can't get to the inside cover on google or amazon any more. I'll leave it to you! Maury Markowitz (talk) 17:39, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Wait wait wait…


 * ALT3 ... that Colonel John Boyd's Patterns of Conflict, a presentation on military strategy, became so influential that he was summoned by Dick Cheney to help plan for Desert Storm?


 * That is directly referenced, and is even more punchy than the original. Oddly, that is a page I could view directly, now it's snippet only. But it is there! Maury Markowitz (talk) 17:46, 24 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Pictogram voting keep.svg Ok, I numbered that ALT3 and am signing off on that (on ALT3) with AGF that the reference says it was for Desert Storm - the snippet I can see does not include those words, and the lack of page numbers strips the context. I would still prefer you add a stitched together quote to that reference to make it clear, but I agree, from what I can see it is entirely believable that was why Cheney summoned him. If you add a referenced statement to the article to cover ALT2 (I can see a page saying it but don't know what page number it's from!) I'll amend this to cover that too and the person who promotes it can decide. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)