Template:Did you know nominations/Petites Heures of Jean de France, Duc de Berry


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:21, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Petites Heures of Jean de France, Duc de Berry

 * ... that the illuminated book of hours Petites Heures of Jean de France, Duc de Berry shows the beginning of the Ave Maria in 17 historiated letters (pictured)?
 * Reviewed: Lee Chong Wei
 * Comment: what the hook says is pictured, and I think it's the page that looks best in small size, - it would suit 8 December well which is a Marian feast

5x expanded by Hillbillyholiday (talk), Martinevans123 (talk), and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 21:42, 29 November 2016 (UTC).


 * Symbol question.svg New enough, long enough, neutral. The hook is a caption and not referenced. I'd be inclined to move these very long captions into the text somehow. Johnbod (talk) 18:13, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree. Let's wait and see what the other co-noms say? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:21, 15 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Not sure where to put it, but here's the source for the hook: http://archivesetmanuscrits.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cc59106h "Au f. 52, 17 lettres historiées formant les mots AVE MARIA GRACIA PLE[NA], sur fond d'or." --Hillbillyholiday talk 18:42, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, now I'm puzzled, as that is a completely different book, no? Johnbod (talk) 22:45, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh bollocks you're quite right! How embarrassing. I thought that image was odd compared to the others, that was part of the appeal. Both books are called Horae ad usum Parisiensem and both have been digitized by the BNF, hence the confusion. I thought I'd double-checked all the folio numbers against the BNF scans but must have neglected that one. This is the Petites Heures' Ave Maria  I don't know if you want to scrap the nomination or we could come up with another hook? --Hillbillyholiday talk 02:41, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It needs a new hook for sure. Could we get refs on all the ex-captions also? Most French books of hours are "use of Paris" (slightly variant text) in the late MA - I looked for a link for that but we don't seem have one. Johnbod (talk) 03:42, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Rather rushed at the moment. I should be able to incorporate some new material, find those sources for the captions, and give a new hook in the next couple of days, if you don't mind waiting. Sorry to all for the inconvenience. --Hillbillyholiday talk 04:36, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Please put it as reference behind where it's mentioned. Sorry, I really thought it's obvious on the image, - it was to me ;) - I hope that the image will be taken, - it's so stunning and actually the reason why the article was expanded. - Can you also make the captions article text? Looks like a third voice for that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:21, 15 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Have changed article layout. Is this better? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:25, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think so. Johnbod (talk) 22:45, 15 December 2016 (UTC)


 * ALT1: ... that the Petites Heures (detail pictured) of John, Duke of Berry shows the "rupture in style" that occurred in French illumination at the end of the fourteenth century?


 * I don't see why we should give clicks to the count ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:37, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Fair point, he is interesting but credit should go to the artists not patrons (says the artist). Striking. --Hillbillyholiday talk 11:57, 17 December 2016 (UTC)


 * ALT2: ... that the Petites Heures of Jean de France, Duc de Berry (page pictured) show the "rupture in style" that occurred in French illumination at the end of the fourteenth century? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:37, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Source: ... est un témoignage de la rupture de style qui se produisit dans l'enluminure française dans les deux dernières décennies du XIVe siècle.
 * Continuing review: New ALT1&2 hook checks out, refs done (looks much better). Earwig says "Violation Unlikely, 32.4% confidence" - only book titles etc found. New pic is ok to use. Actually I prefer the struck ALT1 as Berry is such an important and famous patron - the work would not exist without him. He's in the hook one way or the other - I suppose one might as well have the link, and the actual MS title is then snappier. Is the QPQ review complete? - not quite sure. We're nearly there. Johnbod (talk) 15:55, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The qpq is done, - you don't have to wait for it to be finalized. - DYK is to draw attention to the article, - every curious reader can be sure that there will be a link to him in the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:36, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * You need to make that clearer on the QPQ Gerda - at the moment your last comment was a query 3 weeks ago. It'll never progress like that. Johnbod (talk) 00:30, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I approved it now (not that it matters for a qpq, but was easier to approe than explain that) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:00, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Please don't be difficult Gerda! Why should reviewers checking the qpq have to struggle to read your mind, when we have a set of clear symbols available? afaik, the general interpretation is that a qpq review has to be completed, which seems sensible. Johnbod (talk) 15:14, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Afaik, I have to have checked the article against the criteria, yes, but not have "completed" the review which may depend on the author(s) of the other article, and might thus hold up the process. In this case, I hoped for approval of the author for ALT3 and ALT4, but finally didn't wait longer as probably they would protested if not happy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:04, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Symbol voting keep.svg AGF on quoted source, acceptably translated. See above for the rest. GTG (with pic 2).  Johnbod (talk) 15:14, 18 December 2016 (UTC)