Template:Did you know nominations/Spark (horse)


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Zanhe (talk) 18:13, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Spark (horse)

 * ... that Spark was the first American thoroughbred race horse?


 * Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Ranikot Fort

5x expanded by Doug Coldwell (talk). Self-nominated at 10:46, 1 April 2016 (UTC).


 * Symbol confirmed.svg Expanded 5x and nomination is within 7 days of expansion, copyvio checks reveal no problems (e.g. ), hook content is backed with an inline citation to a reliable source in the article (source), all non-lead ¶ have inline citations, QPQ review performed. North America1000 12:28, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, the Spark that raced in America was a gelding - according to the source giving the details of this "probably" first race - so it's either another horse or the writer isn't very reliable on equine matters. And Spark wasn't the first imported Thoroughbred - that's Bull Rock in 1730 (a fact that is sourced in our article on Thoroughbred). Ealdgyth - Talk 22:10, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
 * See Bulle Rock entry at Bloodlines.net, as well as Fairfax Harrison's Early American Turf Stock vol. 1 pp. 19-22 (although Harrison calls him Bully Rock), Peter Willet The Classic Racehorse p. 101, or PBS. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:35, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Factually inaccurate. Neither the first Thoroughbred imported to America nor the first racehorse. See and. Montanabw (talk) 22:52, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I seem to have lost your point. In your second link it says Thoroughbred racing to North America is traditionally credited to Governor Samuel Ogle of Maryland, who first staged a Thoroughbred race “in the English style” at Annapolis in 1745. Governor Samuel Ogle is the one that owned Spark.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 23:03, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
 * But your source in this article says it happened "probably" in 1747 when the gelding Spark owned by Ogle won a race. There is obviously quite a bit of "probably" involved here - the dates are off by two years from the other source and the only source that names the "probable" first race winner gives that horse's sex as gelding, not stallion. Many horses in the time period were named the same - so it's entirely possible that the gelding Spark (who may or may not have run this race that may nor may not have been the first thoroughbred race in the Americas) was a son of the stallion Spark. Given that the source McWilliams is writing a history of Annapolis, not a history of racing ... and the fact that the color is given (the stallion's color is not known) and the racehorse is said to be castrated - and that neither Harrison nor Bruce give any racing information for the stallion - I do not think McWilliams is a reliable source to state uniequivocally that the subject of this article was the first American thoroughbred race horse. (And Thoroughbred is being used as the name of a breed here so it should be capitalized). No other source for Spark (the stallion) states that he raced in the first Thoroughbred race - when a non-race-historian says something but all other race-historians do not say that - you should probably go with the subject matter experts. And even the source being used to say it was the first Thoroughbred race in America (there are records of races being run on Long Island in the 1600s, by the way) only says "probably". Ealdgyth - Talk 23:36, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
 * And I dug out Robertson's History of Thoroughbred Racing in America and looked up Spark. No mention of any racing career. And there is plenty of mention of races predating 1747�/1745, including ones over three mile courses in 1737. I don't think we can safely say a thing about some race in 1747 being the first Thoroughbred race in America. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:12, 4 April 2016 (UTC)


 * proposing ALT1: ... that Spark was one of the first American-born Thoroughbreds?
 * Will that work? ?   Montanabw (talk) 00:04, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Nope. If Spark was the horse that was bred by Fleetwood and given to the Prince of Wales before going to Baltimore's hands - he was foaled in the British Isles. So, no, he was not American-born at all. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:12, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll try again. :  Montanabw (talk) 00:41, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

*ALT3 ... that a Spark was given to Governor Samuel Ogle from Lord Baltimore that originally came from the Prince of Wales as a gift? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:14, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * New ALT2 ... that Spark, a Thoroughbred imported from England to the Province of Maryland, was a gift to Samuel Ogle from Lord Baltimore?
 * That's reasonable but I think it would be more intriguing if you dropped the phrase between the parenthetical commas. Also, pipe Lord Baltimore to Charles Calvert, 5th Baron Baltimore who is the Lord B in question. Sorry I got here too late for the historical discussion.  Tigerboy1966  07:47, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

*ALT4 ... that a Spark was given to Governor Samuel Ogle from Lord Baltimore that originally came from Frederick, the Prince of Wales, as a valuable gift? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:01, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment Source of reference is Herbert, Henry William (1871) - The circumstances of the gift speak well for the character of the horse, who was probably in a high form as a racer, since royal donors are not wont to make worthless donations.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:47, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

*ALT5 ... that a Spark was given to Governor Samuel Ogle as a valuable gift from Lord Baltimore that originally came from the Prince of Wales? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 22:06, 4 April 2016 (UTC) *ALT6 ... that a Spark, which went through a circuit, was passed through Lord Baltimore and given to Governor Samuel Ogle and had originally come from the Prince of Wales and was shocking?

*ALT6a ... that a Spark, which went through a circuit, was passed through Lord Baltimore and given to Governor Samuel Ogle had originally come from the Prince of Wales?
 * Comment - Source of reference is Haskin, Frederic J. (June 24, 1930) Belair, the Home of the Gallant Fox newspaper clipping.

*ALT6b ... that a Spark which went through a circuit was passed through Lord Baltimore and given to Governor Samuel Ogle - had originally come from the Prince of Wales as a present?
 * Comment - Source is The American race-turf register. SPARKE, Imported into Maryland by the late Governor Ogle, and was presented to him by Lord Baltimore, who received him as a present from his late Royal Highness, Frederick Prince of Wales -
 * Comment - Source of reference is newspaper clipping of The Atlantic Constitution (p. 1) (Altanta, Georgia). December 6, 1874 – "There's Money in Blood / Pedigrees of the Old Imported Thoroughbreds". Another source is White, J. T. (1897). National Cyclopedia American Biography, V.1.

*ALT7 ... that a Spark, which went through a circuit, was passed through Lord Baltimore and given to Governor Samuel Ogle and had originally come from the Prince of Wales and was shockingly fast?
 * Should the ALTs be reviewed, since the original has been withdrawn?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:59, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Remember everyone, it is ambiguous if this Spark ever raced... the one that did in America is recorded as a gelding... so How about something almost normal (grin)? (ALT5 isn't too bad, though)  Montanabw (talk) 07:36, 8 April 2016 (UTC)


 * ALT8 ... that the Thoroughbred Spark was a gift to Samuel Ogle from Lord Baltimore regifted from the Prince of Wales?
 * ALT8 - sounds good to me. In the interest of expediting the nomination I was bold and struck out the other ALTs I proposed.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:26, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
 * We all have agreed on ALT8. Will that work for you?--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:04, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg Follow-up review: ALT 8 content is backed with an inline citation to a reliable source in the article . Copyvio checks reveal no problems (e.g., only match is a quote in the article). Good to go for Alt 8 . North America1000 19:10, 10 April 2016 (UTC)