Template:Did you know nominations/Tootie Perry


 * The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as |this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:18, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Tootie Perry, Edgar C. Jones, Goldy Golstein, Red Bethea, Larry Dupree, Charles Casey (American football), Vel Heckman

 * ... that the American football players inducted into the University of Florida Athletic Hall of Fame as "Gator Greats" include "All-American Waterboy" Tootie Perry (pictured), athletic director Edgar C. Jones, attorney Goldy Goldstein, halfbacks Red Bethea and Larry Dupree, end Charles Casey and tackle Vel Heckman?
 * Reviewed: Randi Blehr, Southport Arts Center, Southport Town Hall, Atkinson Art Gallery and Library, Craig Borten, Lettuce soup, San Diego Padres Hall of Fame

Created by Cbl62 (talk), Dirtlawyer1 (talk). Nominated by Cbl62 (talk) at 19:25, 9 September 2014 (UTC).
 * Note: The nom is a few hours late on Edgar C. Jones but timely on the others. I ask for a few hours leeway on Jones. I am working on the QPQs. Cbl62 (talk) 19:50, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Seven QPQs have now been done for this 7-part nom. Cbl62 (talk) 21:27, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Reviewing.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:12, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Tootie Perry-created by Cbl62 Sept 2, 2249 characters--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Edgar C. Jones-created by Cbl62 Sept 1, 3427 characters--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Red Bethea-created by Cbl62 Sept 2, 2627 characters--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Larry Dupree-created by Cbl62 Sept 2, 2859 characters--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Charles Casey (American football)-created by Cbl62 Sept 2, 2489 characters. Only article in which Dirtlawyer1 did not make substantive content contributions and only one in which he does not receive a credit.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Vel Heckman-created by Cbl62 Sept 2, 2504 characters--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Goldy Goldstein-created by MisterCake Sept 6, 1501 characters (Cbl62 expanded this from 483 characters to 1391). This is the only article with credit to a third user (MisterCake)--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Jones, Dupree, Casey and Heckman are all sourced by The Gator F Club. This is not a secondary source. Is it possible to find more traditional WP:RS for these articles?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:03, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe this is a reliable source. I will ping  for his input on this. Cbl62 (talk) 21:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The "F Club" is the University of Florida Varsity Lettermen's Club, and it is the organization that maintains the University of Florida Athletic Hall of Fame. As simple as the F Club list is, it is the official list of "Gator Greats."  I have added secondary sources for the induction of Tootie Perry (1992 news article) and Larry Dupree (2014 obituary), but most of these guys were inducted into the HOF in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s, when it was much more low-key affair and news coverage of the Gators was sparse.  Cbl already added a obituary footnote for Red Bethea's induction in 1986, and a news brief for Goldy Goldstein's induction in 1989.  I am scouring the internet, but I may not find secondary sources for Jones, Heckman and Casey.  The old newspaper searches are hit and miss, and I've often found HOF announcements by accident.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:34, 18 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The articles are neutral, adequately sources, pass a copyvio check and are within general MOS guidelines.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * QPQs are done.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The hook is adequately interesting. It would be tough to work all the articles into a single hook in any other way. Several of the articles may have more intriguing hook possibilities, but there isn't much else that can be done for a 7-way multi.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The hook is 316 characters. It might be worth paring down some of its flowery and wordy content.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:28, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure what language it is that you consider to be "flowery and wordy." The rules specify that multis are not limited to 200 characters; 300 characters for a 7-part multi strike me as pretty efficient. Cbl62 (talk) 21:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Forgot to query regarding leniency for the one article that was nearly a day late.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:07, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Unlike you fellas, I'm not a DYK regular, so pardon me if this is a dumb question. In a DYK blurb about seven members of the University of Florida Athletic Hall of Fame, is there a reason why we are not linking to the Wikipedia article that lists all of its members?  Can we only link to newly created articles?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:26, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * We could do that, but the goal is to draw page views to the newly created articles. The more articles that are linked in the hook, the greater the risk that page hits get diluted to the non-featured article. If you could respond to Tony's question above, that would be appreciated. Cbl62 (talk) 22:10, 18 September 2014 (UTC)


 * TonyTheTiger, the leniency is up to you, but I'd imagine a day late is permissible given the number of articles involved. However, I don't see a single review icon from you indicating the state of this review, which is really needed, especially as you have already begun to claim review credit. As for the length of the hook, Cbl62, it is long by DYK standards: WP:DYKSG says, If your hook introduces more than one article, you can do a basic calculation by subtracting the number of characters in the bolded character string for each additional new article beyond the first. After having done that, if the hook length is still 200 characters or fewer, it is probably an acceptable length. If it is over 200 characters after the subtractions, it may still be considered eligible if the hook is reasonably compact and readable, but such hooks will be considered on a case-by-case basis. As this is 223 characters after all those subtractions (and the 11 for "(pictured)"), it is too long. You might want to omit the positions of the final four players (you don't mention one for the first three), which should save the characters you need, or find a different approach. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:24, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Cbl62 is an attorney in real life, and he has been consumed with RL concerns for the last week or so. I was one of the contributors to these articles and I am familiar with the subject material.  If anything else needs to be done, please let me know and I will do my best to comply.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:34, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Dirtlawyer1. If you want, I can post an edited version of the hook with the cuts as I suggested as an ALT1. But at this point, it's up to TonyTheTiger to weigh in, since it's his review. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:39, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Tony is one of the most active sports editors we have, and his editing history indicates he has been active in the last 24 hours. Please feel free to post your ALT1 version, and hopefully my ping will attract Tony's attention so we can wrap this up.  Cheers, Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:43, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * ALT1: ... that the American football players inducted into the University of Florida Athletic Hall of Fame as "Gator Greats" include "All-American Waterboy" Tootie Perry (pictured), athletic director Edgar C. Jones, attorney Goldy Goldstein, plus Red Bethea, Larry Dupree, Charles Casey and Vel Heckman? (I thought it was better with the "plus" to separate the ones with descriptions from the ones without, but that means it's 202 characters eliminating all but the first bold link, or 205 if we eliminate all but the longest link. I'll leave it to Tony whether the "plus" stays or goes; either way we're down to 200 or fewer if it goes.) BlueMoonset (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I am willing to pass this if feels the source is adequate.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:59, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The real problem here is that the one source is just a list of names and sports. There's nothing to explicitly connect these particular articles/people with that list; in particular, that lack for Jones, Heckman, and Casey is a problem, and something is needed to confirm that their articles are about those Gator Greats if the hook is to run at DYK. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:29, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, you mean other than the fact that these named athletes played for the Florida Gators football team as indicated by the list, right? But, yes, I understand what you're saying about sourcing: it's thin.  FYI, the F Club list, such as it is, is the official list of Gator Great members of the UFHOF.  For members who have been inducted since the late 1970s, I have usually been able to find newspaper articles about the then-current class of new inductees.  Before that, not a lot of ink was spilled when these oldtimers were inducted at a private UF event, and in some case, posthumously.  All of that is background so you can understand the available sources.  For Jones, Heckman and Casey, would you accept an internal article/release from the UF athletic department, explicitly confirming their membership in the UFHOF?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:48, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Dirtlawyer1, I don't see how an internal article/release would qualify as "published" under WP:SOURCES, but as I consulted Crisco 1492 before my previous reply, I'll do so again on this, since he's more experienced than I am in these matters. I understand the background; unfortunately, when adequate sources aren't available, it affects what can be claimed in an article or hook. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:05, 18 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify, I was not terribly articulate in my meaning by using the word "internal." GatorZone.com, the University of Florida's sports website, routinely publishes both original content and press releases previously released to the media.  Here's a linked example: "Gator Volleyball Great Nicole McCray Thorn is a Member of 2015 UF Athletics Hall of Fame Induction Class."  If such sources are not acceptable for our purposes, then I suggest we remove Jones, Heckman and Casey from the DYK and go forward without them.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:13, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * My objection was not to the source being primary, but to the lack of sports and other information necessary to contextualize this. Individual articles might be worth using, if nothing else is available, but that list doesn't have enough info. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:06, 19 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Symbol possible vote.svg It has been 20 days without a response from either Cbl62 or Dirtlawyer1, and that's frankly too long, especially as the latter has been pinged more than once and is actively editing on the site. Crisco 1492 has, as far as I can tell, given a go-ahead to use sources such as the one suggested on October 18, but no action has been taken to do so. I hope this is addressed in the next few days. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:34, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * There are no articles, either third-party newspapers or in-house, that support UFHOF membership for Jones, Heckman and Casey which are not simple lists. So, the alternative is to either (a) accept the F Club's UFHOF membership list, or (b) excise Jones, Heckman and Casey from the DYK text.  Your call.  Please advise, and I will do whatever is necessary to wrap this up.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:35, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Regarding this attempt to ping, be advised that pings only work when the user link and sig occur in the same edit.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:26, 9 November 2014 (UTC)


 * TonyTheTiger, thanks, but I naturally realized it as soon as the ping didn't get through to me, so I put a note on Crisco's talk page right afterward to get his attention directly. And, to return the favor, your edit broke this page because you'd used opening double brackets closed by a single bracket (the single was correct), which somehow messed up the DYKsubpage template. I've fixed that. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:13, 9 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Since Jones, Heckman, and Casey are only mentioned in various lists of names, which does not have the contextualization Crisco 1492 was noting was needed, we need to pull them out of the "Gator Greats" hook. I've struck both earlier hooks with all seven; this would leave a four-article ALT2 hook along the following lines:
 * ALT2: ... that the American football players inducted into the University of Florida Athletic Hall of Fame as "Gator Greats" include "All-American Waterboy" Tootie Perry (pictured), attorney Goldy Goldstein, and halfbacks Red Bethea and Larry Dupree?
 * I'm getting 200 characters if we only count the Tootie Perry link per the guidelines, or 203 if we count the longest of the four, Goldy Goldstein.
 * Dirtlawyer1, I should note that Jones, Heckman, and Casey can still have other hooks proposed for them, whether grouped in a single hook, two in one and one in another, or all three separate. Just because they don't have adequate support to be listed as Gator Greats doesn't mean there aren't good possibilities for hooks. Both Jones and Casey set single-season records; both Heckman and Casey were All-Americans and were both drafted and signed to NFL teams though neither played with them in the league, and Jones was the first Gator ever invited to play in a post-season game, went on to become the University's Athletic Director, and gave Red Barber his first "fee" as a broadcaster. Please feel free to propose an alternate four-Gator hook from ALT2, and also to propose one or more hooks for the other three. I'm sure TonyTheTiger will be happy to review them. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to proceeding with the four-player hook you propose above. I'm sorry that I did not make my agreement with your suggestions express.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:38, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * do you intend to nominate the other three articles for the main page in other hooks. I can assess those here, if you do. I don't think a separate nomination would be considerered timely.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:00, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * TonyTheTiger, those other three are in the future, if ever. At this moment, we have a four-article hook that needs reviewing, so please review it so the four can finally be completed. If neither Cbl62 nor Dirtlawyer1 have come up with any hooks for the other three articles by the time these four are promoted, then the other three articles are summarily dropped and won't be eligible for consideration again unless they become Good Articles at some later point; it's that simple. This was nominated on September 9, and we've waited long enough. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:04, 21 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Symbol confirmed.svg The four articles included in ALT2 are all sufficient for DYK (Neutral, cited and not copyvios) and are supported for the hook. The hook is fine. QPQs are sufficient for all 7 articles. If the article is promoted before a hook is proposed for the other three, they will not be eligible for DYK based on newness. However, should they become GAs, they will be eligible again.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:00, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * and, please comment on your intentions with Edgar C. Jones, Charles Casey (American football), and Vel Heckman if you have a chance.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)