Template:Did you know nominations/Victor Edelstein

Victor Edelstein

 * ... that Victor Edelstein designed the blue velvet dress worn by Princess Diana when she danced with John Travolta?
 * Reviewed: The Butcher Of Amritsar
 * Comment: Possible merge with the DYK for the Travolta Dress?

Created by Mabalu (talk), Surtsicna (talk). Nominated by Mabalu (talk) at 16:29, 22 July 2013 (UTC).


 * Suggested alt hook: ... that Victor Edelstein designed the blue velvet dress worn by Diana, Princess of Wales, when she danced with John Travolta?
 * (Explanation from Surtsicna was "Princess Diana" is the name invented by the media' My take is that "Princess Diana" is a popular widely-known and recognised name and more catchy, I personally have no strong feelings either way, but suggesting an ALT hook is fairer to all rather than changing the nomination.) Mabalu (talk) 16:48, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You are right, of course, I am not sure if we are allowed to correct hooks of other users. Suggesting an alternative one is a better option. Anyway, I think there were several discussion about "Princess Diana" at Talk:Diana, Princess of Wales. The consensus seems to be that factual accuracy should be not be ignored. For what it's worth, I believe the alternative hook is better because nobody can complain about inaccuracy at Main Page/Errors. Surtsicna (talk) 17:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I kindly ask reviewers to pay attention to this nomination by 28 July so that it can be featured as a double hook along with the hook about the Travolta dress. Thanks. Surtsicna (talk) 16:21, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, that ship has sailed. I therefore propose an alternative hook, to avoid too many Diana-related hooks:
 * ALT1: ... that Victor Edelstein quit designing luxurious dresses for British princesses in 1993 to become an artist whose painting is held by the National Portrait Gallery?
 * Surtsicna (talk) 22:40, 27 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Symbol possible vote.svg I was hoping to get this reviewed just under the wire so the double hook could be used—I like it better than the single one, which is a bit clumsy—but ran into a few snafus. First, the good news: the article is new enough, more than long enough at 2121 prose characters, is adequately sourced, and the ALT1 is supported by inline sources. However, I'm a bit disturbed by the closeness of the article to the wording in FN3: compare "Edelstein was born in London. He started out as a trainee designer for Alexon in 1962." from the article with the source's "Victor Edelstein was born in London. In 1962 he started as a trainee designer for Alexon,". There are also troubling inaccuracies: his time with Salvador is said to be before 1970, though Edelstein's own timeline (FN5) puts Salvador as starting in 1972. Also, though the FN2 source doesn't say which Lady Nuttall was involved, the article gives it as the third wife (1975–83) rather than the fourth (1983 until Nuttall's death); unless there's another source that confirms this (in which case it needs to be cited), I'd go with only the details that can be sourced. The next sentence after Lady Nuttall also seems to assume a bit more than can safely be done: while FN2 was published in 1989, book lead times make it almost certain that Edelstein was interviewed for the book in a prior year, perhaps 1988 or even 1987. Further, the material as I read it indicates that the 2400–2500 pounds cost of a dress had been a price point for a number of years: he's complaining that the price is basically the same five years later despite increased costs. Finally, ALT1 suffers from a problem between singular and plural: he's painted a number of portraits, one of which hangs in the National Portrait Gallery. That one, of Judith Martin, might make for an even more interesting hook: Judith Martin is Miss Manners; if you add that fact to the article, you could do something like "whose painting of the lady who created Miss Manners is held by the National Portrait Gallery". BlueMoonset (talk) 23:35, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Just saw this, sorry.


 * "X was born in London" is such a generic statement that I don't think copyvio should even figure there. The trouble with such simple, direct statements (like "London is in England") is that they're so simple and direct that they leave little scope for rewriting. However, I have rewritten following sentence.
 * Salvador: I've rearranged the sentence a bit so that it doesn't explicitly say he worked for them BEFORE launching his own label. The sources give conflicting information, chronologically, but all agree that he DID work for the labels at one point or another.
 * Lady Nuttall - I remember trying to work this one out. But yes, I think you're right - have unlinked, and tweaked the ref to the second husband to just say "her husband"
 * "Arond the 2400-2500" mark is pretty ambiguous - not sure about it being two years earlier, because such fashion books are usually written pretty quickly, particularly if by journalists, to the point where they are rushed out - particularly when they deal with very contemporary material. However, I've modified to "in the late 1980s".
 * Just seen the ALT1 hook - With all respect to Surtiscna - I don't think it quite works, but I like BlueMoonset's suggestion. Along those lines:
 * ALT2: ... that former couturier to the British Royal Family, Victor Edelstein painted a portrait of Miss Manners that now hangs in the National Portrait Gallery of the United States?
 * (Can we tweak the ref to the NPG? The main NPG is in London, so it should be specified that this is the American one. Mabalu (talk) 12:11, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Absent the appearance of Miss Manners in the article, she cannot appear in the hook. (You'd need to add a source that made it clear that Martin and Manners were the same person.) I think it's better to list Edelstein earlier (before other wikilinks). How about a new ALT, assuming that source gets added:
 * ALT3: ... that Victor Edelstein, a former couturier to the British Royal Family, painted a portrait of Miss Manners that now hangs in the U.S. National Portrait Gallery?
 * I think this will prove to be a very useful source. Not only is it by Martin herself, but it has a number of interesting bits of information about Edelstein's history, and mention's Martin's writings being turned into "Miss Manners on Music", which is probably explicit enough a connection between person and pen name for hook sourcing. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:28, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Expanded the ref to name 'Miss Manners' and added new citation - thanks! Hope all is OK now? (I've just realised the NPG website does also make the Miss Manners link!) Mabalu (talk) 18:24, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Symbol redirect vote 4.svg There's been good work on all the issues above; however, as the proposer of the ALT3 hook, I can't also approve it, so another reviewer should finish the review here. (I have struck the earlier hooks: the two Dianas because the desire was to eschew Diana once the anniversary passed, and ALT1 and ALT2 because of objections raised.) BlueMoonset (talk) 14:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Symbol voting keep.svgComment. The mention of "Miss Manners" added and cited in the article, completes the ALT3 hook. Alex ShihTalk 18:00, 4 August 2013 (UTC)