Template talk:Always substitute/Archive 1

Ambox version
I've hidden an ambox version of the message on the template page. if no one has any objections, I'm going to replace the non-standard box with the standard template. -- Ludwigs 2 23:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Converted to ombox. PC78 (talk) 13:53, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

From Template talk:Substituted
'''Template:Substituted was merged into this template. The following discussion is from that talk page.''' – Paine Ellsworth  (  C LIMAX   )  09:21, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Substitution
I would add the option s to indicate the reason is substitution and no other one. --Mac (talk) 07:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Possibly this template and transclusionless should be split, to make that distinction explcit. Alai (talk) 11:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Capitalisation of templates
RE where it says "– use ." <-- It would be cool if it didn't automatically tell people they need to capitalise that, since a lot of people probably don't realise there's no need for people to capitalise the name when typing a template, it saves a little bit of time and effort for everyone, not much but in the end ads up to a lot (along the same lines as Blackle though I prefer Scroogle) :) -- Mistress Selina Kyle  ( Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉ )  02:32, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Where does it say so?Or do you mean it is implied by the capital "S"? Well, after all, names of templates are capitalised, just that it is not mandatory. Debresser (talk) 11:28, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Substitution in archives
I think it may be a good idea to have an option like "archive=yes/no" which would put a note that a particular template should be substituted in archives. For example, see discussion on substitution of talkback here: Template talk:Talkback. --DixonD (talk) 10:49, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Which bots
Which bots are currently subst:ing templates based on this one? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:55, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Bots/Requests for approval/AnomieBOT 45. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:31, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 26 August 2018
Please substitute with sandbox. The purpose of this template message is for use in template documentation. If transcluded (on a rootpage other than that of this template itself), this template message includes the text "(i.e., use )". For templates utilizing a documentation subpage, this functions correctly when the documentation subpage is transcluded on the template basepage. However, when the documentation subpage (or the sandbox page, for that matter) is viewed directly, the template reads "(i.e., use )". The inclusion of "/doc" is an error. The primary purpose of this requested edit is to eliminate the "/doc" (or "/sandbox") from being included in the template message text by displaying the basepage name instead when these subpages are viewed. It also deprecates code that changed pagename to a demonstration "" when the template is viewed on its own page, in favor of creating a demo using the existing variable "actualtemplate", already implemented in the template documentation. Additionally, this proposed edit places this parenthetical in small text. Additionally, this requested edit makes a code improvement by eliminating unneeded #default from switch. Bsherr (talk) 05:21, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done except for what appears to me an unnecessary font size change Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:07, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Above fix was flawed
There are templates to be substituted that are not root templates. For example, WPBannerMeta/templatepage/impheader is substituted by WPBannerMeta/templatepage/preloadimp. (they don't currently invoke Subst only). The test for root only is problematic. I suspect filtering out the sandbox and documentation templates may be required. Or updating the description and suggesting manual categorization. Dpleibovitz (talk) 04:00, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 27 April 2020
This is very minor, but please adopt the sandbox version, in which I have made an edit that removes an unneeded line of code that is causing an old icon to display. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 02:48, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:00, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 2 June 2020
Please could the template itself be put into  tags, such that it doesn't appear itself on its page. An example is given directly below in the documentation anyway, and having three templates almost stacked on top of each other just creates confusion. WT79 (Speak to me &#124; account info) 17:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template.
 * It is generally appropriate for the template page to demonstrate the template, even if the documentation also does so. --Bsherr (talk) 21:41, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Why was this template moved?
The code to subst a template is "subst:", so the name of this template was "subst only". It made perfect sense. Was there a discussion prior to the move from "subst only" to "substitute only"? Pinging. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:08, 23 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Most people using Wikipedia aren't going to know that. I suppose it's arguable whether they would even be using this template, but it's generally better for templates to have names that make sense to everyone rather than using insider abbreviations. Either way, the old name still works as a redirect. M.Clay1 (talk) 13:13, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If people think the old name is easier to understand (which is the only thing I care about here), then I don't oppose it being moved back (so long as the current name remains a redirect). But nosubst, which I also moved, is a much worse name. M.Clay1 (talk) 13:16, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Templates are already showing up incorrectly within their documentation. See Template:Uw-disruptive2. Magitroopa (talk) 14:31, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , please revert this move, which has broken the template's use in multiple places. I am fine with a redirect existing, and I am fine with a move discussion if you feel strongly about the name. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:42, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have no idea why that is happening, so I'll move it back for now. M.Clay1 (talk) 14:46, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have initiated a RM at Template talk:No substitution to resolve the current inconsistency. --Bsherr (talk) 06:27, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Template talk:No substitution which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 07:03, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Warn/prevent substitution for unknown parameters?
This template needs to come with prominent warnings that using it on a template which is invoked with unknown parameters will cause loss of information, including non-trivial amounts of encyclopedic information lost in the last couple of years (see Template talk:Lien web).

(Background:

I still think the underlying issue should be fixed; most (but not, apparently, all) current subst-only templates simply shouldn't be substed if there are unknown parameters. One way of achieving this would be to use something like on those template pages, and to modify AnomieBOT to check, for those templates only, that unknown parameters aren't used.

For an example of what's currently happening, look at this diff. The problem is that since it was a substitution that happened, there's no way for template authors to fix the problem retroactively: someone is going to have to go through the edits and find those where information was lost (this part is easy to automate), then go to the current revision of the article and perform the necessary corrections (this part is usually very hard).

Everyone keeps telling me "this is not a bot issue", but it's easy to fix by modifying the bot (and, obviously, adjusting Wikipedia policy to make clear that such a modification is legal and required), and impossible to fix for the future without doing so, so I remain unconvinced.)

Anyway, since the underlying issue doesn't look like people are interested in fixing it, please at least warn users of this template that they shouldn't use it unless they've verified that all parameters they are likely to be invoked with, particularly in the case of templates that simulate foreign Wikipedias' reference templates, are actually handled.

Eelworm (talk) 10:37, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Abuse of this template
I noticed a critical flaw with this template. The template not only advises users to subst this template, but also can control whether the template should be substed by a bot. If placed on documentation pages of templates that are transcluded on many pages, the template could have the potential to cause substantial load on the servers. These templates are almost always protected, but by the open nature of this wiki, most of the doc pages can be edited by anyone. This means anybody could cause a template to be substed when it is not necessary, perhaps even breaking wikicode. Templates that use the unsubst module may be perpetually substed. Users may also categorize templates into Category:Wikipedia templates to be automatically substituted manually. I suggest removing the code that causes the category addition to make it harder for the template to be used maliciously. I don't know if protecting the category would help. I hope I didn't violate WP:BEAN. --JsfasdF252 (talk) 03:34, 22 December 2020 (UTC) updated 03:38, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The bot refuses to substitute templates with many transclusions, for this very reason. – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:06, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Exactly how many template transclusions (or pages the template is transcluded on) is required to prevent the bot from substituting it? Also, does the bot refuse to substitute any and all templates which use Module:Unsubst? Why doesn't the category description mention this? JsfasdF252 (talk) 15:15, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
 * See this example. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:31, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Confusing wording
The template itself displaying "should always be substituted" and then documentation saying the template itself should never be substituted is awkward phrasing. I will think more how to better word it, but I suspect the ambiguous reference to "Template" could be improved, or even provided with an example to make it clearer. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 10:11, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Not always?
Since  doesn't work inside extension tags like   or   (T4700), perhaps the instruction to always substitute should have a qualification, or at least the option to add one for templates likely to be used in such a context, e.g. Format ISBN. In such situations, editors need to use the template unsubst'ed and rely on the bot to perform the substitution. Kanguole 11:04, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 2 July 2023
see Template talk:Never substitute 79.185.142.163 (talk) 18:26, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Primefac (talk) 18:36, 2 July 2023 (UTC)