Template talk:Audio/Archive 2

this template needs a link to the file page
as it currently exists there is just a link to the actual file, which tries to download, and a cryptic "?" which links to audio help, but this is not very obvious. a lot of people don't understand URLs, hovering over things to get tooltips, etc. it should have a more explicit "audio help" link and also a link to the original sound file page for people to find out information about the file, revision history, etc. - Omegatron 23:12, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)


 * oh, i see. there are two templates.  i'm going to make this a lot more obvious. - Omegatron 23:15, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Template:pronunciation

 * Template:pronunciation

I have seen some Wikipedias using a special template for pronunciations. I have made one see Template talk:Pronunciation. I think this is more easy to use and you have more options to change the looks of it whitout the need to change the article. --Walter 16:28, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Link to source-side
the current shape (? you know what i mean ;) ) of the template makes it difficult to for users!
 * 1) when they are not used to wikipedia-audio-things they will be "afraid" that without warning a file wants to download on there computer
 * 2) when they want to find out the information about the source of the file the are challenged: try it with Ketrzyn ... you need to know wikipedia very well to find out where the file and the description you need for GNUFDL is hidden! i think it should be changed back to an older version! ... Sicherlich talk  20:19, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * i reverted as i could not see the reasons why neutrality changed it ... Sicherlich talk  20:24, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Superscript
The superscripted question mark forces my browser (Safari) to put a line space above, as big as a paragraph break. This confuses the reader by disrupting the flow of the page. I've substituted a bracketed question mark [?], but this could be done a number of ways, e.g.;


 * [[Image:Loudspeaker.png|Sound]] listen[?]
 * [[Image:Loudspeaker.png|Sound]] listen [?] (&lt;small> HTML element)
 * [[Image:Loudspeaker.png|Sound]] listen ?
 * [[Image:Loudspeaker.png|Sound]] listen [help]
 * [[Image:Loudspeaker.png|Sound]] listen﹖ (Unicode "small question mark")

—Michael Z. 2005-10-3 19:09 Z 

This ain't music
I really like the idea of linking to the sound file from a symbol, but I don't like the fact that it's made up of a musical note. I don't think I've ever seen this template used with a music file, and it's very misleading to signify links to audio files that don't consist of music with this kind of symbol. Surely there must be other symbols to choose from.

Peter Isotalo 17:31, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * My goodness, yes! The musical notes in the introduction to Kiev are quite out of place.  Isn't there a Unicode character that looks like a speaker, or an ear, or something denoting sound, but not necessarily music?  How about a short word, like [audio], or [hear], or maybe a standard abbreviation like [A] for audio?  —Michael Z. 2005-10-15 23:35 Z 


 * It's not a Unicode character, but what's wrong with [[Image:loudspeaker.png]], as used above? --Angr/undefined 06:23, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, clicking on it takes you to an image of a speaker. But maybe this could be solved with some inline CSS.  —Michael Z. 2005-10-17 13:36 Z 

The musical note is just misleading and silly. This is not "template:jingle" or "template:muzak". I've changed i to a letter A, which at least vaguely says "Audio". Please only change it if you come up with something better. —Michael Z. 2005-10-17 13:43 Z 


 * Some other possibilities are: ◄ (which looks a little like a speaker if you use some imagination), ⍄ (which looks like the "play" button on a tape deck or CD player), ☊ (which looks like headphones), ❝❞ (to indicate something spoken), or ㍳ (perhaps more indicative of "audio" than A alone). --Angr/undefined 14:06, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Good thinking. These also look like "play" buttons: ▶  ▸ ▷  ▹  ▻ (why is there no "right-pointing black pointer"), maybe the white ones are less obtrusive on the page:.  The "headphones" look great, but in a screen reader they might be read as "Ascending Node".  —Michael Z. 2005-10-17 14:23 Z 

Ideally, the loudspeaker image should click through to the audio, but it seems that with the (current) Wikimedia software, images always are click-through to their source page, no matter what. Regretfully, IMHO. What about simply making the text clickable, so that clicking "listen" or "pronunciation" plays the audio? Is that better? (Maybe not?) The best thing IMHO would be to modify the Wikimedia software to accept the behaviour we want. It is easy to implement, but probably very difficult to get acceptance for! -- Egil 14:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Are the square brackets around the "play button" really necessary? --Angr/undefined 15:17, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Feature request
This really needs a bugfix. (I've entered this as Bug 3726.) We can display icons next to things like this:


 * external links
 * secure links
 * [mailto:emailaddresses@example.org email]
 * news links
 * ftp links
 * irc links

so why can't we display a loudspeaker icon for links to audio files? If we did it exactly the same way, we could have links that look like this:


 * pronunciation [[Image:loudspeaker.png]]
 * [[Image:loudspeaker.png]] pronunciation

But we probably just want it to look like this:


 * [[Image:loudspeaker.png]]

where the speaker links to the sound file and not the image page. But it still seems relatively easy to add to the software. Also would be nice if the Listen template image linked to the sound file, too, instead of the image page:

The "play" triangle is a good solution for now. — Omegatron 15:20, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I think it may be doable by editing the style sheet at monobook.css. Have to figure out where and how the others are done, and be consistent.  It would also be nice to have a more attractive little speaker image.  Maybe if it was just blue like a link, instead of solid black.  —Michael Z. 2005-10-17 16:26 Z 


 * I like it the way it is. Blue would be different for different skins. It can be changed after the fact anyway.  — Omegatron 17:42, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

A solution
Add this to your user css (User:YOURUSERNAME/monobook.css):

.audiolink a{   background: url("http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Loudspeaker.png") center left no-repeat !important; padding-left: 16px !important; padding-right: 0 !important; }

and then reload this page:


 * External audio link:
 * pronunciation
 * External audio link with audiolink class:
 * pronunciation
 * Internal audio link:
 * pronunciation
 * Internal audio link with audiolink class:
 * pronunciation

This way people can click on the loudspeaker icon without going to the loudspeaker's image description page. If it works for everyone we can add it to MediaWiki:Common.css.

The icon should really be a system icon (in http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/monobook/), but we can use a (protected?) image from the Image: namespace for now. I made a copy here to be protected, but maybe that's not necessary. — Omegatron 18:52, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Help please
I'm sure this has to do with the way my browser (Mozilla Firefox) is set up, but when I click on the little music note, I don't hear the sound file, I get sent to the Image: page where the sound file is located. If I click on the symbol there, it still doesn't play, it just wants to get downloaded onto my hard disk. And if I do that and then play it with Winamp, it still doesn't work, and I can't hear anything. So instead of clicking once and hearing the sound file, I have to spend three minutes accessing the file and still can't hear it. Any suggestions? --Angr/undefined 13:50, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, I figured out I have to use Windows Media Player, not Winamp, and it works, but I still have to go to the Image: page and download the file, rather than just click-and-hear. Is that how it is for everyone, or just me? --Angr/undefined 13:59, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


 * No, it's the same for everyone, and it's been like this for quite a while. I don't like it either, but the problem is that people need to be able to get to the image page without being computer savvy. So far there's no satisfying solution for how this should be done without having three links from the same tiny template.
 * Peter Isotalo 14:16, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

It looks really odd
with the double parenthesis: (pronunciation (♫))

The outer parenthesis is really needed (see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amsterdam&oldid=25717372 for what happens if they are not used), and should be added outside of the template (for flexibility). But it looks really odd with the inner ones in addition. Why not revert to the speaker symbol without the parenthesis, it is also more logical (e.g. pronounciation in all languages, except perhaps Italian, is not music). -- Egil 06:32, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * See also: Template_talk:Pronunciation for examples. -- Egil 06:53, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Now the latest version has round brackets subordinate to square brackets, in a template that often appears in brackets (e.g., in Kiev). Furthermore, the content link is one character, and the supplementary help link is ten. The interface for this template has gone from bad to just as bad. Maybe it's time to dump this template and let editors just link to sound files? —Michael Z. 2005-10-23 05:55 Z 


 * I don't think we should dump the template, and I do think the [>] is sufficient. The problem is the (audio help) after it; that takes up a lot of space, even when small, and is especially distracting when there are two audio files on a page, as there are at Kiev. I'd rather see the link to Audio help at the image page of the .ogg file (like [[Image:Kyiv.ogg]]), perhaps in the bar on top where "Image - File history - File links" are now. --Angr/undefined 06:18, 23 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree that this whole thing is tricky; the two main problems are that
 * we can't use images (e.g. a loudspeaker icon) as links, and
 * we need to provide a help link every time we provide an audio file, since most people have never seen a Vorbis file before and have no clue what to do with one.
 * Ideological issues aside, I really wish we could provide MP3 files; every major operating system supports them out-of-the-box, whereas Vorbis requires a plugin on (at least) Windows and Mac OS X. Policy is policy, though, so the latest version of this template looks like "Київ ▶ (?) ".  Any thoughts on this version? --bdesham 14:40, 23 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Please discuss changes on the talk page before changing it all around and back again. Unnecessary editing of templates that are used on lots of pages bogs down the servers.  — Omegatron 19:10, 23 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Sorry about that. I didn't think of the potential server load before I edited. --bdesham  ★  22:42, 23 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Bdesham's proposal is the best one I've seen lately. —Michael Z. 2005-10-23 23:45 Z 

Ogg on Mac
Speaking of ogg audio, I haven't had much luck listening to them on my Mac lately. Using either the QuickTime plugin or the VLC player application (with QT plugin un-installed), the first full second or so gets cut off before audio plays. For most of the short audio samples on Wikipedia, this means I hear nothing, or just the last half-syllable (usually "–uh").

Anyone have a better experience? Same? Any tips? —Michael Z. 2005-10-23 23:44 Z 


 * At the moment I'm using the QuickTime component from Arek's OggVorbis QuickTime component page. There's still the delay before playing, but it seems that the plugin is at least under active development, unlike the qtcomponents component.  MplayerOSX probably works fine, but its interface is awful IMO. --bdesham  ★  03:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The gap at the front is still there, but much shorter.  —Michael Z. 2005-11-3 07:07 Z 

Error
After the recent changes this template stopped displaying nicely. Near the play triangle I get this "missing image" error icon. --AdiJapan 07:24, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

cross-namespace links
I removed

(?)

because it was causing pages to show up on Special:CrossNamespaceLinks

Fplay 19:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The colon before the "Image:..." syntax.
The colon before the "Image:..." syntax causes the image file not to directly link to the page, and I've had a multitude of audio files almost deleted because people thought they were orphaned. Is there a particular reason it's coded this way, or is it okay to change it? --FuriousFreddy 20:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * yes there is a reason: see the discussions. Unfortunately it is otherwise not possible or at least only possible with a good knowledge about the functions in Wikipedia to get the information about source, licence ... Sicherlich Post 15:14, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

A little redesign

 * Now it looks like this: listen ▶ (?)
 * It could look like this: (listen: ♫ (info·help) )

This "♫" character would be linked directly to the file (ok, not the best one, but better than just square box I see), info - to description page with copyright tags, help - to help. What do ya think? Renata3 20:40, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I did like this: listen ▶ (help·info) . Left out parenthesis, colon for flexibility and did not change the character. Renata3 21:49, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Template not suitable with IPA
This template is likely to be used in conjunction with an IPA transcription. However the template does not allow the IPA string to be surrounded by the IPA template. For example I would like to write (symbolically): However the nesting of the template does not function properly, showing as "". Another way to use it would be: Note however the extra vertical bar at the end of the template. If this is forgotten, the then missing parameter shows up as in " ". This template is not very suitable for its intended purpose. Any one with better ideas? &minus;Woodstone 13:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * have you tried to subst:IPA? Renata 19:37, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Add IPA
Somebody should go around and listen and put the IPA transcription onto each page that only has an audio file...

At least should mention to also add the IPA transcription instead of only an audio example. Jidanni 01:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

New css speaker
I added an "audiolink" class to the site css to render a speaker icon next to the link. The speaker is now clickable and goes to the sound file instead of the speaker image description page. I can imagine this not working in some older non-css browsers? Leave a note here with info about your browser if it doesn't work. We can make it even more complex and have the css hide the text triangle thing at the same time as it adds the speaker icon. Of course, the triangle thing doesn't display in some browsers, either... — Omegatron 14:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Metadata class
Why is this class = metadata? Apparently this class is meant for data that shouldn't be printed on paper, like infoboxes. This doesn't seem to apply. — Omegatron 15:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Clear links
I reverted the insertion of just (very) small "h"- and "i"-symbols, since this saves a minimial amount of space and makes the template a lot harder to read. I did like the look, but it struck me as non-functional for those not used to the template.

Peter Isotalo 11:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

On links to help, etc
The way the template is now, things appear in articles as


 * eigenvector (help·info)

I find those links to "help" and "info" highly distracting in articles, see for example the beginning of Eigenvalue, eigenvector and eigenspace. That "help" information may prove useful if your player fails to work, but on the balance I would argue that we would be better off with them out rather than in. Comments? Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 21:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think they're distracting, too, but we really need something, as people have said on this talk page many times when this comes up. We can't just link directly to the files, because then there is no link to the file description page, etc.  See
 * The other alternative is templates like audio2 or audio-nohelp combined with inline audio, but that doesn't link to the file description page, either. — Omegatron 21:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand. But that does not change the fact, those (help, info) links do not belong in articles, they don't. Something must be done about the few people who can't set up their audio, but not by linking to help and info from all places where ogg files show up. That is poor usability. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:31, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The only rational solution I can think of is for the small loudspeaker image to have a link (and just a single one) to some kind of info or help page, while the bolded word after it links to the ogg file. How's that? Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:33, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Then how will people find the ogg file's description page?
 * Besides, there's no way to link just the loudspeaker icon without a software change. If we're going to make a software change, we might as well solve many things at once. — Omegatron 21:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Why do you need two links though? A link to info should be enough. The link to help should be accessed from the info page. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 21:58, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * That's fine, but doesn't help someone who clicks on the direct link to the file. They won't realize that the image links to a different place than the text link.  Plus that would require a software change, too; the audio help link would have to be added to all Image: pages that contain audio files. — Omegatron 02:36, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I am saying that instead of


 * eigenvector (help·info)

we could have just


 * eigenvector (info)

Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * But that doesn't fix the clutter problem that you had with it, either. It's barely different from that perspective. — Omegatron 01:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)