Template talk:Baseballstats

Self link
Are you sure we shouldn't have a self link? It has become fairly standard to have one on many templates, and I think it is very helpful to have a link to the documentation. Understanding how to modify the template is not intuitive, although I agree it looks a little awkward. -- Basar (talk · contribs) 06:40, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

ESPN link
Barry Zito and Alejandro Machado have the same ESPN ID. Does anyone know how to get around this? StormXor 03:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I added the links to the articles; I'm not sure what the problem was when you tried, but they had unique IDs when I tried. -- Basar (talk · contribs) 03:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * For some unknown reason, ESPN assigns two IDs to each player, they're never the same ID for a particular player and they almost always overlap. The old ESPN template used the "statsId" and the new template uses "playerId". Caknuck (talk) 06:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Adding a Source
Hi:

I'm one of the people who run ArmchairGM.com. We have an extensive baseball stats database on each of our wiki pages, and also have other information such as videos and images (where available). I think that adding ArmchairGM to this template would be beneficial to Wikipedia, for two big reasons -- (a) because of the similar naming taxonomy, the template would always have at least one valid link (that is, the parser function wouldn't apply to the ArmchairGM link, as our page is always there) and (b) we have the same stats everyone else does, but also more information and/or the potential for a lot more information.

Per WP:COI and WP:SCOIC, I am not editing the template myself, even though I'm capable to do so, and ask that the community decide and, if consensus agrees with me, that someone else edit the template appropriately.

Thanks! --DNL at ArmchairGM (talk)


 * There are several problems with your idea. Firstly, the fact that your site is a Wiki precludes it from qualifying as a "reliable source". Your site also seems to host images and videos without regard to copyright issues. The copyright issues extend to plagiarism from Wikipedia itself -- see your current featured article Michigan Stadium, which is a word-for-word C&P job from the Wikipedia version, but does not identify its source, which is a violation of the GFDL.


 * Most of the baseball player articles I reviewed had little more than boilerplate text, career stats and a transaction history crudely cribbed from baseball-reference. I see nothing there that would justify adding the site to the template. Caknuck (talk) 06:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

What about the links to all the players (at least the prospect ones) at ScoutingBook.com? Those seem to follow a rigid "playerID" format that would work here, and I'm pretty sure that content is original, since that's a reporting/opinion site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MiguelQ (talk • contribs) 02:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Baseball Reference-Minor Leagues
I think it would be great to add Baseball Reference's minor league section to the template for use on guys who have only minor league stats. I'm going to add it, if anyone objects feel free to undo but I don't see what the problem would be. Philatio (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 01:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * On second thought I can't figure out how to add it and don't want to break anything. If someone with more knowledge could do it that'd be great. Or I may just have to learn how to do it. Philatio (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 01:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I've added this to the template; use. Mackensen (talk) 12:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

TSN
Hey, I think TSN would be a valid stats link to add. I use TSN quite a bit for transactions, as it seems to be the most visible/obvious I have seen of stats/player pages. Also, it has minor league numbers in the career stats, so pretty good for a single player page. I just updated the Cristian Guzmán page, and the TSN link for him is as follows: http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/teams/players/bio/?id=2119. Baseballfan (talk) 09:39, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

MLB.com stats
As it is currently set up, mlb.com stats are only available for active players. The site does have a whole section for all players (historical and current). For example: Willie Mays historical, Ken Griffey, Jr. historical, Ken Griffey, Jr. current (note that the player ID for Griffey is the same for both). We could either add a new field that could be used for the historical players, or change the current mlb link to go to the historical page only. Thoughts? JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 19:17, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It should work fine and I think it's a good idea to link to the historical page for retired. —Borgardetalk 12:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Documentation
Can someone please change the start of this template to

*

Instead of just

*

It will fix the issue with the documentation not displaying properly. —Borgardetalk 12:53, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ Ruslik (talk) 17:07, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

new mlb.com problem
All mlb.com players page links should start "mlb.mlb.com". It seems that when the link is just "mlb.com" it sometimes ends up broken (I think for players not on current rosters). JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 06:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Brent Leach is one example that I just came across. JustSomeRandomGuy32 (talk) 06:21, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

✅. It may take a while for the change to propagate. Mackensen (talk) 12:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Minors baseball reference
They just changed all their links...so yea...--OaklandAthleticsfan (talk) 06:13, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Already been fixed; the individual pages will have to be updated. Mackensen (talk) 23:30, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

TSN and retrosheet
I still believe TSN would be a good one to add for player links (see above). TSN, and Retrosheet (above as well) seem to be the best two that include transactions. TSN also has injuries/suspensions, and awards. Take for example Ken Griffey Jr. at TSN, and at Retrosheet. TSN also has year to date stats, not to mention on pace stats, but that isn't as important. Thanks. Baseballfan (talk) 12:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Option to omit bullet
The template always starts with a bullet but some articles use it as an inline reference where the bullet causes bad formatting, for example. Source templates usually don't add bullets but instead require the article to make a bullet before the template when wanted. However this would cause a problem with a huge number of current uses of this template so I suggest an optional parameter to specify that no bullet is wanted. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
 * This template shouldn't be used as part of an inline reference. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:45, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I have added this option; use . -- Mikeblas (talk) 21:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The Baseball Cube
They seem to have changed player pages.

For example, Ángel Pagán's Baseball Cube page entry is as at http://www.thebaseballcube.com/profile.asp?P=Angel-Pagan, but the link from Wikipedia goes to http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=Angel-Pagan.shtml. Because this template inserts data after http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players, an invalid page is rendered because the /players subdirectory is not used. NYCRuss  ☎  12:02, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Pages moved on The Baseball Cube
The pages have moved around on The Baseball Cube. http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/.shtml will no longer work, it will have to be updated to http://www.thebaseballcube.com/profile.asp?P=, and all cube entries will have to be manually changed from "Initial.of.last.name/First.name-Last.name" to "First.name-Last.name"

– Muboshgu (talk) 19:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It's really annoying when they do this! Would it be better to use a different named parameter for the new format? (To save confusion in the transition period.) And could we generate the new format using string functions? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:12, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes I think we can use Template:Str right for this, but it is "expensive". For example &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:33, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * produces
 * produces
 * ✅ As you didn't reply, I've made this change so at least the links will continue to work for now. I suggest placing a request at WP:BOTREQ to get all these parameters automatically updated. Then we can take out this temporary code. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 06:06, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, busy day yesterday and I missed this. Thanks for the help. Will do with the bot request. – Muboshgu (talk) 13:44, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Parameter changes
I've just added some temporary code to the template to detect which form the cube parameter is in. This will ensure that both forms will work during this transition period. When complete we can remove this code. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:34, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

I am now working through these with a bot. If anyone could check a few of the changes and make a comment on the BRFA it might help to expedite the process of getting approval for this task. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:02, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

✅ I believe that all articles have now been updated to the new syntax, and I have removed the transition code accordingly. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:11, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Another parameter change
Links to The Baseball Cube are now formatted this way: http://thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?ID= Similar to several other parameters used in this template, the ID has become a number. Vycl1994 (talk) 22:08, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Awesome. The Cube links in the template don't work any more. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:48, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, they should work 'cuz it's ✅, and thank you very much, Vycl1994!  Paine Ellsworth   put'r there  02:51, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
 * PS. Of course, the ID numbers will need to be individually modified just as I did in the template documentation with the Chris Young example. PS left by  Paine Ellsworth   put'r there

Parameter testing added
I have added a test to the template. It looks for cube values that contain letters and puts them in the unknown parameters category. It looks like there will be a bunch of articles that end up in the error category for this reason, perhaps as many as 2,800 articles. The articles need to have their cube parameter values updated, as far as I can tell. If this was the wrong thing to do, or if the test needs to be tweaked, let me know. – Jonesey95 (talk) 10:29, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

ESPN.com pages have changed
Just a note that ESPN has changed its layout and URLs for player profiles. The formats are defined below:


 * OLD: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=xxxx
 * NEW: http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/xxxx/first-last

... where xxxx is the player's 4 digit ID on the website. Can someone work on updating this template to account for these changes? Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk &bull; contributions) 03:01, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, now it appears that the first/last name portion of the new URLs has been removed. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk &bull; contributions) 14:13, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Please make the required changes to Template:Baseballstats/sandbox and then we can fix the template. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:39, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Managerial Records
Would it be possible to add the link for the managerial records at baseball reference? See for example how Connie Mack has his managerial record and playing records split up on two lines as the situation currently is. Kinston eagle (talk) 20:38, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * ❌ Sorry, but it's hard to know what to do with just that description. Could you update the sandbox with the relevant code? Best — Mr. Stradivarius  (have a chat) 10:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If I knew how to do the code, I wouldn't have asked for help in creating it. Kinston eagle (talk) 22:39, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Update URLs for the Baseball Cube
These links don't work any more. They changed their parameter from "profile.asp?P" to "players/profile.asp?P". I changed it in the sandbox. Please change it in the main template. Thanks. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:11, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * ❌ We shouldn't really be basing this template on an unprotected template stored in userspace (User:MSGJ/Construct list). I think either we should code it using another template, or we could ask MSGJ if he would mind us moving his template into template space. I'll leave a note about this on his talk page. Best — Mr. Stradivarius  (have a chat) 10:37, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 27 June 2013 regarding accuracy/specificity of end result
Currently the end result produces one external link, directly to the proper page, but the link occurs for the name of the reference/website. I suggest using a format similar to what is seen by the IMDB (Internet Movie Database) template that Wikipedia has long been using, wherein the title of the article (the athlete's name) would be the direct link to that website's page for the athlete; not the name of the website itself as the direct link.


 * currently looks like: Career statistics and player information from
 * my suggestion to make it look like: at  or if SidP's Reference Compendium has no Wikipedia article, then:  at SidP's Reference Compendium
 * currently the link is on SidP's Reference Compendium, when it should be that clicking on Franco Harris directs the Wikipedia user to the Franco Harris page on SidP's Reference Compendium.

Here's the relevant part of IMDB's name template, I think. Note that IMDB has an internal link (article in Wikipedia), which all of these sites may not have. ] at the Internet Movie Database

--SidP (talk) 16:05, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: There's a problem with your request - the template doesn't allow just one site, but several - have a look at the test cases. Instead, we could add a parameter to specify what name to display - e.g. "Career statistics and player information for John Smith from Baseball-Reference, or Fangraphs, or The Baseball Cube" rather than just "Career statistics and player information from Baseball-Reference, or Fangraphs, or The Baseball Cube". However, we would have to be careful with how to deal with disambiguated titles (e.g. Kevin Brown (right-handed pitcher)) and with pages where the page title isn't the name of a baseball player. And the change would also make the template longer, when it is already pretty wordy. I suggest posting on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball and see if you can find a consensus for what change to the template would be best. When you've done that, you can add the relevant code to the template sandbox and reactivate the edit request. Let me know if you need any help with the coding. Best — Mr. Stradivarius  ♪ talk ♪ 10:01, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Is there an inline template for citing links at baseball-reference.com
More than two years ago, proposed adding an optional parameter to this template, so that it could be used as an inline reference, which is of course a common practice that is part of WP's guidelines for citing sources. PrimeHunter asked for an optional parameter to allow this template to be used in such cases. replied it "shouldn't be used as part of an inline reference", which is certainly the case as it stands now, but that avoids answering the question.

Is there an inline template for citing links at baseball-reference.com? seem like handy ways to do that, since any change by baseball-reference.com would affect both extlinks and citations.

Of course I could use baseball-reference.com in or whatever, but if baseball-reference.com were to change the format of their URLs, my now-broken refs would have to be fixed by a bot or by hand. 72.244.204.251 (talk) 17:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit request ESPN link
Please change

to

Sawol (talk) 03:55, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done —  04:17, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Add Baseball Prospectus
This is also a famous website on baseball statistics of MLB players, however this template still does not include it.--RekishiEJ (talk) 07:56, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Please use HTTPS for Baseball-Reference.com links
The purpose of this edit is to provide increased privacy and security for users by having the template use HTTPS when generating links to pages on Baseball-Reference.com. The Baseball-Reference.com site appears to support HTTPS; for example, http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/y/youngch04.shtml generates a 301 Moved Permanently redirect to https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/y/youngch04.shtml. In the template, please change both instances of  (there are two instances) to   instead. Thanks. --Elegie (talk) 08:53, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Primefac (talk) 17:15, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Please use HTTPS for MLB.com links
Head line says it all. --bender235 (talk) 20:52, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * ❌ while the link redirects to https, the mlb.mlb.com link used in the template (which allows only using the id) doesn't work with HTTPS (such as this one) Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:54, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
 * That is because  is a deprecated URL format. Change it to   (such as this one). Thanks. --bender235 (talk) 15:59, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Galobtter (pingó mió) 10:42, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Retrosheet
I am curious what the community here would think of adding [Retrosheet] to the template. Its associated with the SABR organization, and the individual pages include everything on one page, such as any managerial or umpire appearances. It also has the most updated birth and death dates of the individual and includes their burial place, if known. The reliability factor is very high, it is my primary resouce when constructing baseball articles.Neonblak (talk) 11:45, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Retrosheet 2
I was surprised to see that Retrosheet has been suggested here so many times and never added. If it's just a matter of someone not wanting to code it, I'll do it. I think it would be valuable to have. KV5 ( Talk  •  Phils ) 19:35, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Retrosheet 3

 * Moved from an unrelated section &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk)

....and add Retrosheet. Neonblak talk  -  06:27, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think this is just waiting for someone to code it. Why don't you put the required code in Template:Baseballstats/sandbox and then add editprotected? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:39, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I tried... but, this is clearly above my pay grade. Will have to wait for someone who knows what they are doing with coding to complete this task. Neonblak talk  -  17:29, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * How about this? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:18, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Retrosheet added to sandbox template
Hi - I've added Retrosheet to the sandbox template, along with testcases, which are working as intended. The test cases are at Template:Baseballstats/testcases see the "Sandbox template" section. The format is very similar to |br (for Baseball Reference); |retro=R/Pruthb101 for Babe Ruth as an example, generates the URL:
 * https://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/R/Pruthb101.htm

Editors, feel free to take a look; let me know if any question. I'm not sure how to get such a change accepted, as the Template itself is locked... anyone? I haven't updated documentation; happy to do so when appropriate. Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:25, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Adding a request for an editor with privileges to update the Baseballstats template with the version currently in the sandbox. I believe this is an uncontroversial request, as the new version adds support for a |retro= field (which I'm happy to add to documentation when the template is updated) and deprecates an unused and undocumented |id= field. Retrosheet stats commonly appear in the External links section for MLB players, and this template update will allow such fields to be more easily included. The updated template has been successfully tested in the sandbox. Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:36, 18 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I have a couple of issues with this...
 * I was going to suggest that the retrosheet.org ID be added to wikidata to work the same way as the other properties are documented as working. But looking at the code, it doesn't use wikidata at all, not for any of the IDs - and it should. I think a complete rewrite to remedy this is needed.
 * As a bit of an afterthought you included the removal of id claiming it's unused. Have you checked all 20461 transclusions of the template? I'd like to see a tracking category used to ensure id is unused before removing it. Proof by assertion is insufficient for a possibly breaking change.
 * Cabayi (talk) 11:39, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for replying. Thoughts:
 * 1) I'm not familiar with wikidata so would not be able to do such a complete rewrite; I added support for retrosheet consistent with how the template is currently structured. I hope we don't need to pend useful additions to the template contingent upon a complete rewrite; or let me know the benefit to editors of doing so? The good faith effort here is because it would be really helpful to have this template support retrosheet, hence this request/discussion to add support for it.
 * 2) Fair enough; I'll put the id parameter back as it was, and it can later be tracked and deprecated as an independent action. I wanted to be fully transparent about what changes I made, for this reason. I'll put id back in the sandbox version and add comment here when done. Thanks.

Dmoore5556 (talk) 15:59, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Update: id has now been restored to the template in the sandbox. Dmoore5556 (talk) 17:12, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Please check the difference between the sandbox and the live template before I implement the retro parameter. It looks like there is one invocation of id in the live template that is not present in the sandbox. I would prefer to copy/paste the sandbox into the live template to avoid making any unnecessary errors. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:53, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I see it, thanks; I will correct and advise here when done. Dmoore5556 (talk) 18:01, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Further update: I added more test cases, which were able to show inconsistent behavior of the (now prior) sandbox template, when using the undocumented id parameter. Those anomalies have now been corrected in the latest sandbox template. The test cases (here) invoke various parameter combinations; results between the live and sandbox version are consistent, except the sandbox version supports the retro parameter described above. I believe the current sandbox template can now be deployed without breaking anything. Review from other editors welcome; feedback received today has been helpful. Thank you. Dmoore5556 (talk) 21:44, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * That looks better to me. I have implemented the retro parameter. I will leave the documentation to you. Since you asked for feedback: If I were maintaining this template and wanting it to be used correctly, I would add a check for unsupported parameters (I would be happy to add that) and a check for the absence of any parameters. The last examples on the testcases page would show a red error message and assign an error category. Let me know if you want help, and I'll play with the sandbox. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:56, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much. Yes, those are sound suggestions; help is certainly welcome and appreciated. I'll update documentation now. Thanks! Dmoore5556 (talk) 22:30, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Taking a look at wikidata, there are other links available, d:Template:Baseball properties, though the baseballcube is in need of repair at the moment - d:Property talk:P4731. Cabayi (talk) 11:04, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Unknown parameter checking

 * 's parameter tracking is kicking in. I've cleared a few, then another appeared. I guess it'll be several hours before it's safe to remove id from the list of acceptable parameters.
 * The list includes Steve O'Neill but I just can't see what's wrong with it. Cabayi (talk) 10:36, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * If you go into Edit mode and Preview the page, you will see a red error message that can help narrow down the problem. In this case, it was a duplicate Baseballstats template that had no valid parameters. – Jonesey95 (talk) 11:55, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I was just editing (& previewing) the External links section, not the whole page. It didn't occur to me that there would be another call to the template elsewhere - doh! Thanks, Cabayi (talk) 12:38, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I have added a check for a complete lack of valid parameters. Since there are 20,000+ transclusions of this template, it may take a few days or weeks (sometimes longer) for pages to trickle into the error category. Please note: both parameter checks are limited to main (article) space. This is the typical practice for template parameter checks. – Jonesey95 (talk) 12:17, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * , I've come across a number of uses like José Arcia where folks have freestyled additional additional datasources on the end with a ", or some-other-source". For those cases the addition of the final "." is a backward step. Cabayi (talk) 17:46, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I'll remove the final period (full stop), which I just recently added because I thought it looked better that way, but it looks terrible if someone has added their own links immediately after the template. Maybe there is a more elegant solution. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:53, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Number of links
You are invited to join the discussion regarding the number of links this template supports at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Baseball.—Bagumba (talk) 08:28, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Edit request re: Baseball Reference minor league
The descriptor "Baseball Reference (Minors)" is misleading. The links go to pages that are not limited to minor league statistics, but also statistics from foreign leagues (e.g., Japan and Korea) as well as the Negro Leagues. The template should be edited to reflect this. (I also wonder if a link to Seamheads might be added for Negro League players, but I'll let someone else make that argument.) -Dewelar (talk) 17:35, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, the page that results from the "Minors" link shows stats from all leagues, including MLB. What should it say instead of "Minors"? Maybe "All leagues"? – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:53, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * A good question -- my first thought is that the main link should read "Baseball Reference (MLB)" and the secondary "Baseball Reference (all pro leagues)" or similar. "All leagues" might be confusing because the link doesn't contain (e.g.) pre-1871 leagues or college stats. Anyone else have another idea? -Dewelar (talk) 20:18, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Please use HTTPS for ESPN.com links
Head line says it all. --bender235 (talk) 15:07, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅ Ruslik_ Zero 19:25, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 10 March 2022
Change Baseball-Reference to Baseball Reference (that is, remove the hyphen). The site/page name for baseball-reference.com doesn't use or need a hyphen. Dicklyon (talk) 03:10, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Don't know about this one, . We see on this page toward the bottom, a link to "Baseball-Reference Bullpen". Then just under that we see "About Baseball Reference". So when the two words are used as an adjective-phrase, their website correctly spells it with the hyphen, and when it is a noun phrase they spell it without the hyphen. So my question is... how does this template use it? Can you show some examples to prove it's used exclusively as a noun phrase? (which would compel us to drop the hyphen)  P.I. Ellsworth &numsp;- ed.  put'r there 07:14, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
 * It's used only as the name of the source (noun) in citations. Dicklyon (talk) 15:55, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
 * kewl! and ✅.  P.I. Ellsworth &numsp;- ed.  put'r there 18:59, 10 March 2022 (UTC)