Template talk:Catalonia-geo-stub

Orientation of stripes
The other stub articles are based on the flag. That would mean the striped should be horizontal. But as pointed out by User:cnoguera the horizontal image linked to by the Telefonica Nationalist Vandal is incomplete, and has too few stripes. Also, it's badly named. A new image with the correct amount of horizontal stripes should be uploaded under a good name. --Regebro (talk) 13:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Two wrongs doesn't make it right so I made a new one to find here: [] but since it was my first upload I need someone to maybe change the name and to replace it on all the pages that are using the old file. Once done that should solve that problem for good. Thanks --Floridianed (talk) 18:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The picture Floridianed has uploaded would certainly do the job as well (though I prefer the old one aesthetically and because of its similarity with the coat of arms), but I don't quite understand why are you insisting on the horizontality of the stripes. I have checked there is no uniform criterion on analogous templates (see e.g. Template:Portugal-geo-stub, Template:Belgium-geo-stub, Template:Spain-geo-stub, Template:Germany-geo-stub, Template:France-geo-stub, Template:Italy-geo-stub). So, what's the point? --Carles Noguera (talk) 10:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * All of those templates are based on the flag. I don't see any reason Catalonias should be otherwise. --Regebro (talk) 10:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * As I said, I agree with you. --Carles Noguera (talk) 11:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I think I have understood your point and the criterion under the examples I have shown: the pictures in geo-stubs must resemble the official national flag, not the coat of arms. So, please forget my previous comments and proceed with the change (I am sorry I cannot help you in renaming the picture). Cheers. --Carles Noguera (talk) 10:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * To anonymous IP who is changing the stub

Regarding your comment at user:Cnoguera's talk page:

Please put your comment on this talk page and in English language so everyone can understand it and comment on it. Not all Wikipedians understand Catalan as user:Cnoguera and I do! Also, don't change the stub before reaching new consensus; That's the way it works here (to prevent an edit war as it happened before). Besides that, would you might telling us if you have an account at the Catalan WP so we can contact you directly (since your IP isn't static)?. Thanks, Eduard --Floridianed (talk) 03:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Dear colleagues, the anonymous contributor has written this in my talk page: "Hola, respecte l'orientació de les 4 barres a la plantilla cataloniageostub s'hauria de recordar que en època medieval, que és quan es va originar la senyera catalana, els símbols es portaven en estendarts, que eren verticals. I per tant els pals o barres anaven en aquest sentit. Posteriorment, i vist que tots els països pengen les banderes en horitzontal, s'ha produït el fet que la senyera es pengés en horitzontal i les barres quedessin girades quan la bandera és hissada. Però, si t'hi fixes, en els escuts (que no han acabat girats horitzontalment com les banderes) s'ha mantingut la verticalitat dels pals . A la resta de països coincideix la orientació de la bandera amb la de l'escut. I un bon exemple que reforça aquesta verticalitat el tenim en la recent actualització de la bandera de la ciutat de Barcelona (que va substituir la que hi havia durant el règim franquista). Quan es van reunir un seguit d'especialistes en heràldica van determinar que, donada la posició horitzontal de la bandera, en dos dels quarters hi havia d'haver els 4 pals en vertical."

I took the liberty to bring it here for the sake of fruitful discussion. Let me summarize it in English for those who cannot read Catalan. He argues that in medieval times, where Catalan flag originated, it was usual to show coats of arms in vertical position. So, at that time, the stripes in the Catalan flag and coat of arms where vertical. Later on, it has been costumary to rise flags in horizontal position, so the orientation of the stripes has been changed. He claims that in other countries the orientation of the flag and the coat of arms coincide. Finally, as another rationale to support the verticality of stripes he refers to the recent restoration of the flag of Barcelona, where the specialists have determined that the four stripes must be vertically oriented.

What do you think? If we consider that flags are raised horizontally turning his original orientation, then the Catalan flag is vertically oriented and we should change the picture as the anonymous user requires. Otherwise, we could also consider that the change of orientation from coats to arms to flags is permanently established, and then the Catalan flag is horizontally oriented and our picture is correct. --Carles Noguera (talk) 07:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm the one that is placing the stripes vertically. I explained to the user CNoguera the reasons and arguments for this. And he has summarized it here in english very well. [[Image:Seal of the Generalitat of Catalonia.svg|16px]]. So everyone can reply these arguments. [[Image:Flag_of_Barcelona.svg|26px]] --Farcell (talk) 11:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll comment later; Just have no time right now but I might have a compromise that all can accept. Cheers and fins aviat, --Floridianed (talk) 19:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is my compromise . No comment from my side at the moment since a picture is worth a thousand words. Let me now what you think and question me if something seems not clear enough. Regards, --Floridianed (talk) 22:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Floridianed. Your picture is nice, but unfortunately it cannot be the solution. The coat of arms you have placed there is the one of Barcelona, so it is not representative for the whole territory. Moreover, it would be completely ad hoc to use this kind of combination for a geo stub. Other countries just use their flag. I think we should only discuss what is the right orientation of the stripes in the Catalan flag, and then produce the picture for the geo-stubs accordingly to the flag, as it happens in all the remaining geo-stubs templates. --Carles Noguera (talk) 07:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Floridianed, is this a "compromise that all can accept" or is this a joke ?
 * As Carles Noguera has explained the coat of arms that you have added is the one of Barcelona, and the template is about Catalonia. Your surprising proposal seems to show that your intentions are no good.
 * Try to reply my arguments seriously or accept it. --Farcell (talk) 09:23, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Please, assume good faith. Floridianed probably didn't know the exact meaning of this coat of arms. --Carles Noguera (talk) 09:36, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * @Farcell. Seems you didn't bother to read your own talk page before accusing me of "...your intentions are no good" and being a "joke", otherwise you'd be aware as I myself am that I used Barcelona's coat of arms. Let me quote/copy edit all what I wrote there, for your convenience:
 * "Thanks for laying it out on the correct page. I just made a comment there. Kindest regards, Eduard --Floridianed (talk) 20:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I compromised (and I like it this way since Barna is the capital of Catalunya). Please take a look and comment on it. Thanks, Eduard --Floridianed (talk) 22:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)"

See? I know and pointed out that it is the coat of arms of Barna; Oops, forgive me. You might not know that "Barna" is a nick for Barcelona.... and yes, I'm being sarcastic. After your approach and accusations I take the freedom...!

If all Catalonian coat of arms would have the stripes I would compromise with going all your way but that's not the case. See the coat of arms from Reus for example. I would've integrated the Catalonian coat of arm if it wouldn't be kinda difficult to do so, because of some image similarity to give the image clear lines (separation) within the flag, yet, if you would accept this I'm absolutely willing to figure something out to make it work.

In general: Those stubs are usually based on the flag, not the coat of arms, so I could just be as stubborn as you seem to be but I'm not! If you don't believe me take a look at the history, not only the talk page but also the page history itself. Make yourself familiar before posting an inappropriate comment as you did and you'll see that I already put some work into it to resolve this matter. Did it now again and will do so till we find a compromise that makes everyone happy. That is the best consensus to be. So lets start fresh [I'll just forget your remarks above] because otherwise: Quote: "Try to reply my arguments seriously or accept it". With other words: "get over it". DITTO! And nobody gets served.

If you have problems understanding English don't hesitate to ask if your not certain what is meant or about the interpretation of my comment. I would do my best in Catalan or Castellano even so Carles would be the better choice since my understanding and speaking of those languages is way better than my writing.

And you're welcome to come up with a feasible compromise by yourself. Look at and keep in mind the discussion that happened before you came along and respect those editors opinion as you want yours to be respected.

Kindest regards: Eduard --Floridianed (talk) 01:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I said it was a joke because your proposal is incoherent. You are always talking about placing a flag and then your new proposal is adding the coat of arms of Barcelona (when the template is for Catalonia, not for a city, and when no other template has a coat of arms), and leaving the horitzontal stripes, forgetting my arguments.


 * When I said "Try to reply my arguments seriously or accept it" perhaps sounds no good for you. So let's me explain better. Since ancient times, when people discuss, everyone explain his arguments. And the other people try to reply it. And, if the other people can't reply these arguments then the first person is right. And I'm saying this. If you can't reply my arguments then it seems that my arguments are good and this must be the right decision.
 * If you can't reply it, or you add here incoherent and nosense proposals then it seems that you have no arguments to defense your position.
 * So, I say it more politely: "Please, Try to reply my arguments" --Farcell (talk) 06:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Again:"Those stubs are usually based on the flag, not the coat of arms." Fact!


 * About the stripes: Here is what the "Generalitat de Catalunya" says officially:


 * In Catalan:


 * "La bandera de Catalunya és una bandera de les anomenades heràldiques, sorgida de la translació del senyal de l'escut dels comtes de Barcelona a un teixit. Possiblement la bandera, pendó o estendard dels comtes fou anterior a l'escut. No en tenim referència documental fins al segle XIII, però és una de les més antigues d'Europa.


 * Al principi els pals de l'escut eren representats a la bandera ja verticalment ja horitzontalment. Aquesta darrera disposició fou la que acabà imposant-se i és la bandera oficial de la nació catalana: faixada amb cinc faixes grogues i quatre de vermelles, totes del mateix gruix. Va ser oficialitzada per l'Estatut d'autonomia de Catalunya, llei orgànica de l'Estat de 1979."


 * In English:


 * "The flag of Catalonia is a flag of heraldic origin, the result of the transfer of the symbol on the coat of arms of the Counts of Barcelona to a piece of fabric. The counts' flag, pennant or standard may well have existed prior to the coat of arms. We have not documentary evidence until the 13th century, but it is one of the oldest in Europe.


 * At first, the bars of the coat of arms were either represented on the flag in a vertical or horizontal position. In the end, the horizontal position prevailed, becoming the official flag of the Catalan nation: four red bars alternating with five yellow ones, all of the same width. The flag acquired official status with the Catalan Statute of Autonomy, a State organic law passed in 1979."


 * --Floridianed (talk) 15:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

To all those who keep stuffing around with this template
STOP!

Every time an edit is made to a template used on a massive number of articles, it causes huge problems for the server queue, as long as requiring large amounts of work from WikiProject Stub sorting. Over an average year, most stub templates are changed at most once or twice. In the last year, thsi one has been changed, reverted, changed, reverted, etc etc etc 35 times. There is no need for it. If there are problems, discuss them on the talk page - don't simply edit and create work for everyone. Read the part of WP:BOLD which talks about why extreme caution needs to be employed when dealing with templates and categories (and consider how that compounds when you have a template which links to a category).

As far as the different "yes/no/wilkl/won't arguments relating to icons and wording here is concerned, it is standard practice to use a regional map or flag when one exists - by itself and not alongside the flag of the country or continent of which the region is part. It is also standard practice to only mention the name of the country in the link if there is ambiguity. As such, the template for the English country of Devon does not link to England and only has the flag of Devon, the one for island of Zanzibar does not link to Tanzania and has only the flag of Zanzibar, and the one for Texas only has does not link to the United States the flag of Texas. Similarly that for Catalonia should only have the flag of Catalonia and should not link to Spain. furthermore, the use of the asbox template is deprecated with the vast majority of stub templates, and should not be in use here.

If you have any concerns with this template, take them to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stub sorting. Until then, leave the damn thing alone and let us get on with more useful work! Grutness...wha?  07:58, 17 January 2009 (UTC)