Template talk:Coor title dms/Archive 1

Koordinate Artikel
Note: currently the link is exactly the same as that used in de:Template:Koordinate Artikel. This should be changed to the link(s) used in our own Template:Coordinates. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 01:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Nevermind&mdash;it's the same link for both. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 03:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Very nice. Is there a way to make the parameters more exact, similar to Template:Coordinates? - Cybjorg 05:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Done! It makes it look awful and terribly long with no parameters, but it looks good when it's used. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 06:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry to keep changing it, but the format of is much nicer to use and read and also allows for an optional type: argument that can change the scale of the resulting map. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 07:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

top: -0.5em
Does that work for all browsers? → A z a  Toth 12:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know for sure, but it should if their CSS support isn't badly broken. It works in Firefox and Safari on Mac.
 * However, I just noticed a different problem: the "Your continued donations keep Wikipedia running" banner changes the spacing between the top of the page and the article title, leaving a big gap under the coordinates for users who are not logged in. Anyone know if this layout is long-term or temporary? &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 18:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I like this template a lot--and it actually looks good in both FF 1.5 and IE 6 on my system (my screen is set at 125 dpi so things usually look a little different). The only problem is that the coordinates are crammed right up under the "continued donations" text when I'm logged out, as Saxifrage pointed out. &#126;MDD4696 00:47, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Someone else pointed out that it breaks in anything but the Monobook skin, too. So, that leaves us having to still get a Developer to put the necessary CSS in Monobook.css before this can be widely used. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 06:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Point?
I don't see how linking co-ordinates inline isn't sufficient. The heading area is increasingly occupied by other symbols, and this template simply conflicts with them. Has a proposal for its use actually been made somewhere?--cj | talk 08:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It's been made at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates. The inspiration comes from the Dutch, Portuguese, and German Wikipedias (see New York City or Kaffee Alt Wien for example), where it has been adopted as the standard. As for conflicting with symbols, the placement should give those room. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 08:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've added a banner that says the use of this template is disputed to the noincluded part of the template page. (I couldn't find any existing banner template for "experimental template" or anything more appropriate.) &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 09:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing me to the discussion. I was aware of its use on the German-language Wikipedia at least.--cj | talk 01:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Is there a degrees and minutes only option?
It seems rather superfluous for some locations, such as cities, to include seconds in the coordinate header - in effect you're pinpointing one location rather than the city itself: 1 minute of arc latitude corresponds to around 1.85km, and one second to around 30m... &mdash; SteveRwanda 08:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Since it's still only an experimental template, the corresponding degree and degree-minute versions haven't been made. They could easily be created though, if there was demand. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 18:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Template:Infobox Swiss town would need the dm version. For now, I added "0" for seconds. -- User:Docu


 * It was my understanding that this was temporary and experimental until an admin made the necessary fixes to common.css, monobook.css, et alia. I'd suggested the family title d, title dm, and title dms some months ago.  I didn't think folks were widely using this experimental version yet.
 * --William Allen Simpson 11:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Featured article star compatibility
I've rolled up a version using qif and booleq that allows you to specify whether the article containing the template also has the featured article star (allowing the coordinates to be positioned a little further from the right if necessary). Check out User:Locke Cole/Template:CoorHeader. Also check out User talk:Locke Cole/Template:CoorHeader (edit the talk page and comment/uncomment examples to see the effect of the new  variable). If this is acceptable, feel free to copy it in (or hack away at it). By the way, it seems the optimal spacing from the right edge also happens to be 1.5em (with no featured article star anyways). When the  variable is set to , then the spacing from the right edge is set to 30px. —Locke Cole • t • c 07:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * This looks very useful, thanks. While the template remains broken in non-Monobook skins, though, I'm not doing any active development on it. I'd like to see the necessary CSS added to Monobook.css so we can start using and improving the template in earnest. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 12:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Problem with placement with Cologne Blue skin
In this skin the coordinates are currently placed in the top blue border. -- User:Docu
 * Thanks for the feedback. We're aware of the problem and it's currently preventing the template from shedding its "experimental" status. If it bothers you, feel free to remove the template from articles you work on. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 12:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * WOAH! There are now over 1,100 articles using this!  That wasn't supposed to happen!  Who's doing it?  Infobox?  If it's in an infobox, it shouldn't be in the Header, too.
 * --William Allen Simpson 13:30, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Both above and below (interferes with interwiki links on Detroit, Michigan) the line look bad in Cologne Blue. But, so do the titled-click used for featured article and spoken wikipedia.
 * --William Allen Simpson 23:57, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * So, I tried Nostalgia. The Wikipedia globe image is on the right.  All three templates interfere (in the middle of the globe).
 * --William Allen Simpson 00:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * So, I tried Classic. Smack dab across the Go Search buttons.
 * --William Allen Simpson 00:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Not too bad in Chick and Simple. Definitely has to be below the line in those, though, as there isn't much room above the line with the bigger font, barely room for the little featured article image on longer titles.
 * --William Allen Simpson 00:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It used to work quite well in Cologne Blue compared to the current solution. Can you restore it? -- User:Docu


 * Working with Docu, CSS added to Cologne Blue.
 * --William Allen Simpson 01:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

try placement below the line
In monobook, just below the title line it says "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" left justified. Could we try this right justified in the same place? That would avoid the justification problem with featured article.
 * --William Allen Simpson 13:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That's not a bad idea. It's different from de, es, and nl, but it looks fine. I wonder how those Wikipediæ use the FA star, and how they handle it? Anyway, I've gone ahead and changed the template. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 21:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Alas, it runs into another problem: the template places the audio link right below the horizonal rule in the same vertical position as the FA star. See Beverage can stove for an example with both. I'll leave the changed template as is for now though, since it is experimental still after all. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 21:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * (2nd level of transclusion) and (3rd level of transclusion), both "position: absolute;" but I don't quit understand its source -- it uses 2 levels of nested div around span.
 * --William Allen Simpson 23:30, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Fascinating&mdash;the and  templates both use in-template CSS for positioning, so they're in rather dumb places for all skins other than Monobook. I could read this two ways: either there is precedent for ignoring other skins by the administration and we can just start using this template, or (less WP:POINT violating) there is a strong argument for having the site-wide CSS updated for this template and those two all at once. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 01:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The latter option sounds much better. Would that mean the coorheader and the spoken wiki would automatically align themselves correctly with no need for |fa| or other nuisances?
 * Unfortunately, no. Because they're in separate parts of the page, there's no way to make them "automagically" aware of eachothers existence to allow for that kind of automatic alignment, even if the CSS is adopted into Monobook.css. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 08:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, despite this being an experimental template, it seems to be becoming widespread. A temporary solution to the above problem needs to be found quite quickly, since at present there are articles with the coordinates and spoken wiki superimposed. &mdash; SteveRwanda 07:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I've moved the right of the template over a bit to leave space. You don't really notice it when there's no Spoken Wikipedia icon there, and it leaves enough space when one is there. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 08:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Duplicate or replace
Is this coordinate header meant to duplicate or replace the coordinates found in infoboxes, such as city articles like Hudson's Hope, British Columbia or Omaha, Nebraska? --maclean 25 05:58, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It's meant to complement the in-line coordinates. Some articles warrant the coordinates in the text of the article or in an infobox, some don't, but all articles about locations can use coordinates. This template (as proposed&mdash;it's not policy or part of WP:MOS yet) gives another way to incorporate coordinates into an article independently of how coordinates are dealt with in the article's body. And it looks nifty. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 06:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

d, dm, and dms versions
I'm going to create alternative versions of this template that format the coordinates the way and  do since people have asked about those. I'm really not sure if this template will eventually gain popular support, but lacking those options can only frustrate potential supporters for it as a standard so we might as well have them.

I'm going to use the naming scheme proposed by William Allen Simpson above, but slightly modified to get "coor" in there:, , and. I'll be moving this template to in order to standardise them; however, using  will still work since it will remain as a redirect. (Possibly in the future it should be deleted to keep things clean, but we can worry about getting a bot to do the replacements much, much later.) I'll update here when I've got them all made. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 06:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Done. I think they're all working. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 06:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I wish you'd used the shorter title d, since "coor" isn't important in and of itself, and is someday scheduled to be replaced by "geo". Easy enough to replace later, as this is merely experimental.


 * I think this is a matter of taste: a template that doesn't try to describe its function in its name is unappealing to me. A further consideration is that a "title" family of templates could hypothetically exist for some entirely unrelated purpose, and having it in use or previously used for geographical coordinates would be messy. Better, I thought, to have these "temporary" templates named such that they stay out of the way of other projects. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 23:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, I firmly disagree with putting these templates at the bottom of the edit. It should be at the top.  When there are infoboxen, they are also at the top, and keeping the values coordinated will be easier when they are near each other.


 * I'm undecided on this point. The argument for having at the bottom is that, in non-Monobook skins, the placement of the coordinates may or may not be customised with CSS and therefore they should appear in a place where their appearance in-line is not disruptive to the article (this is how de: does it). The argument against it you've already given, and the technical implication being that the placement has to be customised in the CSS of all skins, or made invisible in skins that don't have custom CSS written for the template. Making them invisible (so as not to disrupt the article or page layout) is... well, I'm not sure if that's a good or bad idea. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 23:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Finally, the Usage should be on the Talk page, as most other templates. Changing such wording will cause a massive database update each time, although no changes to the actual inclusion and display.  I'm going to make that change right away.
 * --William Allen Simpson 13:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The Usage should probably be on the Talk page, yes. I'd originally thought that it wouldn't be used very much so database updates wouldn't be a problem... obviously I failed to reconsider this assumption! &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 23:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Further problems with the placement?
I think moving the location of the coordinates below the line was a smart move. However, I think there is still one problem. The "Spoken article" (example: George Mason University) might conflict with this template. Tell me what you think. Sean WI 19:52, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Fixed a few days ago, at "08:39, 27 March 2006" above. Is it not working?
 * --William Allen Simpson 22:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup, probably should have looked a little more closely, eh? :-P Sean WI 22:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

template at top
My thought is that we want the template at the top for easy edits. The bonus, on pages where the special CSS doesn't (yet) exist, the content will display just under the Title, but on the left instead of the right. Best of both worlds!
 * --William Allen Simpson 02:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think, stylistically, that many people will object to that strenuously. Consider that it will then be in the leader, at normal size and font, and the leader is held to very high standards and expectations by most editors. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 02:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Right now, the coor dm is usually in the lede, in parentheses right after the name. This would be very easy to change, just moving it up a line or two, and adding title in the template call.
 * --William Allen Simpson 03:32, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I expect many editors will consider an in-line usage integrated with the prose (the current method with the family of templates) to be much preferable to having it appear as the first line, alone, in the leader. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 03:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * This would only apply where the in-line was changed. There's no point in both in-line in lede and a template at the bottom that sometimes shows up under the title...
 * --William Allen Simpson 04:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

So, I tried it at the top of Detroit, Michigan, and just noticed (after saving) that the coordinates aren't the same as the ones in the Infobox City. So, a good reason to have at top.
 * But, why have it at all? Couldn't Infobox City just invoke this template, too?   That would ensure the values are the same.  It does mean removing it from most of the test pages so far.
 * It's already been added to Infobox Swiss town.
 * --William Allen Simpson 03:04, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Having it in the infoboxes would be ideal, yes. I think a standard rule for where to place it where there isn't an infobox is necessary though. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 03:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Not possible as written for Canadian cities (the coor template is passed as the parameter), while Infobox City is very obscure, and doesn't use coor. Well, I don't particularly like it at the bottom, but that's where it is for now, and it doesn't hurt anything.  I just don't think it's ideal for editting or display.
 * --William Allen Simpson 04:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

breaks the design
..this nasty template is around so long and still breaks the design. I would vote for disable the template until this is fixed. On every page that uses infobox city this template nearly makes my search field unusable. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 14:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Then you must be using Classic skin. Try Monobook.
 * --William Allen Simpson 15:19, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * That's an unacceptable solution. We don't obsolete a skin because this template is broken.  Please work to fix the template so it works in all skins.  —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 18:12 Z 


 * It has been fixed so it will only be positioned there on Monobook. For other skins, it currently shows inline. --cesarb 19:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

please revert to absolute position
the changes made here by User:CesarB completely loose the purpose of this template, please change back to allowing absolute position. Qyd(talk)18:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC);
 * Fixed with refresh. Qyd(talk)18:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Visual appearance
I'm using monobook skin:

[updated positioning details —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 23:44 Z ]
 * Bold emphasis and capitalization for the word "coordinates" is unnecessary. The template stands out sufficiently by its position on the page, and the word coordinates is obviously a label for the actual coordinates.  As a simple label, there's no need for for capitalization.
 * While logged out:
 * In Safari 2.0.3, Firefox/Mac 1.5.0.1 and Opera/Mac 8.5.2, the template appears above the page title's rule, floating about three pixels above the baseline of the page title.
 * In MSIE 6, it appears above the line, about one pixel above the baseline.
 * While logged in:
 * In Safari and MSIE, the template appears below the page title's rule, with its baseline aligned precisely to that of the tag line "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia".
 * In Firefox and Opera, the template is one pixel high
 * Changing font size seems to change up the alignment in all browsers except Opera.
 * In all four browsers, it appears to be set in about 18 pixels from the right edge of the title (from the end of the rule).

I'll remove the bold emphasis and capitalization; hopefully no one objects.

The best place for this template is above the rule, so that the coordinates are associated with the actual article, rather than with Wikipedia's tag line.

Since it is right-aligned, it should be set flush with the right edge of the title. If this space is intentionally left blank to allow space for the star in featured article, then I suggest that the function of these templates be combined into one template (heading supplement?) so they can co-exist peacefully. —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 18:42 Z 


 * By the way, in all four browsers, the featured article star appears about a full 1.5 lines above this template, so there appears to be no conflict. —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 18:52 Z 


 * I disagree about the capitalization. It looks better with a uppercase first letter. --cesarb 19:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll change it back if you insist then, but first let my try to convince you:
 * Capitalization serves to draw the eye to the beginning of a small typographical unit, such as a heading, sentence, bullet point, or sentence fragment
 * This is not a heading or a sentence, just a simple label for the coordinate figures
 * This label already attracts a lot of attention by its position on the page
 * Uncapitalized, the flat-topped shape of the word has a cleaner look, especially when it appears above the rule (although this may not be the case in your browser; see above)


 * If you're not convinced, restore the capital c, or let me know and I'll do it. —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 19:10 Z 

Taking no position on the "C", "c", or otherwise. Disagree with Mzajac about appearance.

Viewing Calgary, Alberta,
 * Using Firefox Mac 1.5.0.1, and logged in, the template appears exactly where it's been the past week, lining up almost exactly with the "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" on the other side. Might be a smidgen below.


 * Using Safari 1.3.2, and not logged in, the template appears above the rule. The head is much taller, and the phrase "Your continued donations keep Wikipedia running!" shows up (it's not there when logged in).

So, the problem is that the heading changes. Somehow, this needs to float with the headings. And it should stay below the rule, there's no room above the rule, we've already discussed this.
 * --William Allen Simpson 20:18, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Verified the same with Firefox not logged in.


 * As to the location of featured article, it would help the rest of us for Mzajac to actually read the Talk. We've already discussed that, and it's the Spoken Wikipedia that we're avoiding by the shift left.

My guess is, good enough. It matches what other *pedia are doing in form. Need to get the other skins updated so that they work, too.
 * --William Allen Simpson 20:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is room above the rule. We just moved it below arbitrarily as a "let's try this" experiment. Even so, it has to leave room the icon.
 * As for having it float with the title, this is technically impossible as a template without significantly changing the way CSS is handled by MediaWiki (i.e., it would have to send different stylesheets depending on whether the user is logged in or not). &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 21:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It's as impossible as making the Main Page title invisible. --cesarb 22:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Then, this is about as close to perfect as we'll get. It will appear just below the line when logged in, and just above when browsing.  The (other) problem with just above is long page titles, fundraising notices, etc.  But by positioning where it is, we're fairly sure we avoid those!
 * --William Allen Simpson 22:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm amused&mdash;I didn't notice that the "Main Page" title had been excised. Still, it's actually more difficult than that trick: it would require detection of the appearance of both the "donations" text and the coordinates template at the same time, something that can only be done in MediaWiki, not CSS. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 23:55, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't usually look at the Main Page (having bookmarked login long ago), so I didn't see a thing.... Sorry I missed it.
 * --William Allen Simpson 01:02, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I would argue for it remaining a capital C. Every other small typographical element in the interface begins with a capital and having just one be different is inconsistent. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 03:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. I've restored the capitalization.  —Michael Z. 2006-04-03 05:52 Z 

Visual appearance redux
Sorry about my confusion.

I didn't realize that this template displayed differently when logged out, due to the fact that the site notice pushes the main heading down, but does not appear to logged-in users. I've updated the details above.

I did actually scan through the entire discussion before commenting, but the intent of the current template design is not obvious, and is further obscured by the fact that it seemed to appear nicely aligned above the line in the majority of my (logged-out) browsers, and I assumed that the exception (logged-in Safari) was the bug in the template.

I'm surprised that this CSS was added to monobook.css, because the current state of this template's positioning (as well as featured article's and spoken Wikipedia's) is not quite satisfactory. Is someone still working on fixing the problems?

Can someone point out any examples where all three of these absolutely-positioned templates appear on one page? I notice that this template and spoken Wikipedia are positioned using ems in monobook.css, with text-align:right and float:right. But featured article is positioned using pixels with inline CSS, and right:0;. Shouldn't they all be positioned consistently to at least get consistent results with different browsers and users' font sizes? —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 23:44 Z 


 * Why yes, they should all use the same technique, and when they are put into the CSS each with their own id=, that's a good idea. But not an issue for us, it was hard enough (something like a year) to get this implemented.  Unless you are willing to take it on?  Don't forget, the others have the same problem with several skins as we do/did.  The FA and SW appear right on top of the globe in Nostalgia, and overlay Cologne Blue.


 * My guess is that the most used are Cologne Blue and Classic, as those gave feedback. I think that Saxifrage is working on it.  I'd offer to try my hand, but I've a family birthday gathering sometime tomorrow, and have to get some sleep sometime after all this April 1 watching.
 * --William Allen Simpson 01:02, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Forgot to response to the nasty comment about "not quite satisfactory" and "problems". You admitted in your revised analysis above that it was perfectly aligned in several browsers, and one (1) pixel off in others.  How much more satisfactory do you want?  Man, I think Saxifrage deserves kudos, praise, and thanks!  A job well done!
 * --William Allen Simpson 01:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * No offence meant, and I'm sorry for sounding nasty. The problems are the inconsistency caused by the introduction of the donation notice only into non-logged in users' pages.  Too bad it works that way, but offhand, I don't see a way to get around it, short of altering the HTML in the page template, or using Javascript to alter the DOM.  Kudos for designing and implementing this, it looks great as intended, but the lack of control is not so good—it could break in other unpredictable ways if and when the site notice is changed by the powers that be.


 * There is also the few-pixel inconsistency between browsers, which I think may be related to line-height, font-size, or ems vs. pixel units, but that is minor, and it may be possible to work around it.


 * FA and SW positioning CSS definitely belongs in monobook.css, so they should just appear inline at the bottom in other skins, until someone adds support for those skins. I know some CSS and have admin access; can I help?  —Michael Z. 2006-04-02 03:51 Z 


 * For all I know there might be good reasons for not doing so, or existing debate on complications. If you want to help with the FA star and SW icon, ask what the contributors working on those templates think about it. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 06:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

External to internal
Is it possible to implement the geo-coor feature inside Wikipedia? I'm thinking of something like Special:Booksources right now, and I think having it inside Wikipedia would be more reliable. What's your thoughts on this? -- WB 21:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The external website is a test site, with the intention of bringing it into Wikipedia eventually. See the WikiProject Geographical coordinates project page. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 22:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out. Seems like it will be based on Google Earth? I would think World Wind is a better way to go since it's open-source, etc. -- WB 23:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * There currently are many choices of map sources, and this will continue when the markup replaces the templates, as far as I know. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 04:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

By the way, Google Earth is based on Java works on Windows or Mac. NASA World Wind is based on Microsoft ASP.net and DirectX, so it is Windows only, and will probably remain that way. —Michael Z. 2006-04-03 05:38 Z 

Ready for US cities?
As there is now a fix for a few skins where the Monobook placement wasn't optimal, I'd suggest to add Coor title d to Template:Geolinks-US-cityscale. -- User:Docu


 * Sounds good to me. There seem to be several methods in use for US cities.  Infobox City was only one of the existing templates (updated by me a few days ago).  As cities are added to new templates, we need to check for intersections with the old CoorHeader, and remove it.  I'll start on that in a moment.
 * --William Allen Simpson 01:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Woah, looks like Geolinks-US-cityscale uses only GPS instead of the dms system. There are other templates, such as US City infobox on the same pages.  There's going to be conflicts.  Need to decide which is which.
 * --William Allen Simpson 01:54, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yep, Geolinks-US-cityscale is definitely on the same US pages as Infobox City, so that would conflict. Cannot take it off Infobox City used worldwide.  Looks like US City infobox is a better choice for the next US expansion.
 * --William Allen Simpson 02:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Finished removing old CoorHeader conflicts with Infobox U.S. City using coor title d. Still lots of US cities without an infobox of any kind.
 * --William Allen Simpson 03:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The template is now not-broken in skins other than Monobook, but putting it inside an infobox will be broken in any skin that doesn't apply absolute positioning to the "coordinates" ID. I think infoboxes are not the best place to put this. Further, not every city that uses an infobox has the coordinates filled out. I really don't think this is necessary, especially given the brokenness. What do we gain by this move? &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 04:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Geolinks-US-cityscale is on many pages making coordinates easily available in many articles, Infobox U.S. City just on a few articles.
 * The conflict with Infobox City would need to be resolved, either by removing it from Infobox City and adding Coor title d manually to the (non US) cities or by adding Coor title d by bot to pages with Geolinks-US-cityscale instead of the template itself.
 * BTW Saxifrage, you are writing "not-broken in skins other than Monobook". This is correct, check e.g. Berne in CologneBlue. -- User:Docu


 * Pardon, my round-about way of writing that was confusing. I did mean that it is no longer broken in skins other than Monobook. I was trying to say that despite this, placing it in the infobox templates would break the template in a different way in skins that do not use absolute positioning, such as Chick and Simple, by making them appear in the infobox directly rather than positioned elsewhere in the article. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 07:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Then, Chick and Simple need their CSS to be updated. Isn't that the responsibility of their maintainers?  I've tried to help out, but there's a limit as to what we are able to handle and test.
 * --William Allen Simpson 08:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Not all skins lend themselves to using absolute positioning. In fact, unless there is a very good reason to use absolute positioning it is usually considered poor web design. Chick and Simple shouldn't have absolute positioning tricks foisted on them just because it's appropriate for Monobook. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 09:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Then, they need the default to not display put in Common.css, as they did in the German Wikipedia. Then, it just wouldn't appear.
 * --William Allen Simpson 18:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's an acceptable way of handling it as well. It would require additional CSS to be put into all the other skins as well to make it visible in the ones that are appropriate. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 21:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

US cities redux
(started new section, as the previous seems to have diverged to skins)

I've also found Geolinks-US-cityscale (actually the older Mapit-US-cityscale) in Canadian articles such as Edmonton, Alberta.

The problem with the experiment of just adding CoorHeader was that whatever database was used gave different values. I was finding as many as 4 significantly different locations on a page. By using the Infoboxen, I'd hoped that edits in one place would then make a consistent display everywhere.

Instead, I'd be in favor of using Geolinks-US-cityscale after changing all corresponding Infobox City to Infobox U.S. City, and removing the coordinates from Infobox U.S. City entirely. That would give a consistent value (in the US).

Likewise, I'd be in favor of removing all coordinates from Infobox City and adding coor title d to the pages instead. As you mention, this shouldn't be hard to do by Bot. It has the added advantage of not disturbing the other pages while the conversion is ongoing.
 * --William Allen Simpson 05:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I've come to conclusion that, as least with regard to the US and Infobox City, putting the coordinates in it was a bad idea. Turns out that some folks at WikiProject Cities may be converting from Infobox U.S. City to Infobox City, after some history of going the other way. Don't want to get in the middle of that spat.

So, in a few moments, I'm going to remove the coordinates from them as a bad idea, and Docu could add it to Geolinks-US-cityscale at his convenience.
 * --William Allen Simpson 18:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Done, also got the 49 old CoorHeader out of the way, too.
 * --William Allen Simpson 19:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Canadian City & Town
I've also added coor title dm to Canadian City and Canadian Town, removing all CoorHeader conflicts. There's a Mapit-Canada-cityscale, but it's hardly used.
 * --William Allen Simpson 06:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Finished replacing the Mapit-US-cityscale in Canada.
 * --William Allen Simpson 19:32, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Removed coor title dm from Canadian City and Canadian Town, as with Infoboxen (above).

Added coor title d to Mapit-Canada-cityscale, removing all CoorHeader conflicts.
 * --William Allen Simpson 03:18, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Canadian City and Canadian Town are more often used than Mapit-Canada-cityscale. Thus it may be easier to add the template to those rather than Mapit. This may cause conflicts with the currently un-used Canadian geolinks templates (Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Geolinks-Canada-start) -- User:Docu

Yes, I tried it, but they are also a mess. They each have two different ways of passing coordinates, both of which involve passing the name of the "Coor" template to them as a parameter. I'd figured out how to make some of them work, but it turns out that quite a few didn't actually pass the convoluted parameters correctly. I got a complaint on my Talk.

My hope is that future Geolinks-Canada work will handle the problem correctly. As much as I'm excited to be seeing this happen, not enough to personally visit and fix every Canadian city and town page and fix any of the four different template schemes. I did a couple dozen before giving up.

As with the US, the Mapit/Geolinks seem to be the best way to go in the long run.
 * --William Allen Simpson 04:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok I see. I suppose the two Canadian templates eventually get fixed/updated to new options. In general, the coor= °N, °W option complicates things for the title template. BTW for the US, Geolink templates were added by bot, so they should be highly reliable. -- User:Docu

Perhaps someboty (pun) could add the Canadian Geolinks. And speaking of which, the US Geolinks are protected, so we're still waiting on you to add the coor title there.
 * --William Allen Simpson 13:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * As there weren't any further comments, I added "coor title d" to the US Geolinks template. -- User:Docu

Mapit-AUS-suburbscale
I don't know if it affected any other places, but something was superimposing two sets of coordinates (slightly offset) in Adelaide before I commented out the call to this template. I'm certain it wasn't happening when someone first added the coor header, but I can't find which template is now doing it. --Scott Davis Talk 03:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, coor title d is now included in Geolinks-AUS-suburbscale. I'll look into removing conflicts.
 * --William Allen Simpson 04:39, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Not very keen on this template (class) behaviour of putting coords at the very top of articles
Since Coor title d is in Geolinks-US-streetscale which is protected from editing, it has meant all the articles that use that template have coordinates at the very top. Some of the articles that I did most of the editing on are now quite stylistically messed up (IMHO) because of that... I see that template has a disputed tag, but it seems this is the place to bring it up, so here I am. I don't favour having coordinates at the very top of articles, but if that is the clear consensus stylistically for all things that have geographic locatability (plant specimens, buildings, bridges, towns, parks etc) then I could go along. Can someone point me to where this topic was discussed and clear consensus was reached? Thanks! + +Lar: t/c 14:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * agree, don't force users to have this. Why don't have date+time at the top for all articles related to events? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 19:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * disagree. Is it possible to have the temnplate back in the header ? This feature was indeed the only reson I started inserting coordinates in articles. It's most aggrevating seeing the template moving from top back into the article body and back up again following some members' arguments. Meanwhile editors use the template and have their edited articles change every so often after random changes have been made. Some user made changes last night and apparently messed up something so in doubt, I will revert it to the 3 April version. Regards, Captain scarlet 11:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The topic has been discussed here It's actually working well on German Wiki for years, and I find it very smart. The only conflict I can remember was with one of the Wikipedia fund-raising ads. In consequene, the templates were temporarily changed to make them compatible. -- H005 07:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I personnally think it looks very good at the top. especially with the miniwikiatlis.js java-script extention thingy. Bawolff 05:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting templates in title
FYI, I noticed a conflict with another template. See Template talk:Geolinks-US-streetscale for my note there. &mdash; Eoghanacht  talk 14:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Is this still transparent to re-users?
Several sites use Wikipedia dumps to produce mashups that show Wikipedia articles on maps:, ,. I consider these sites one main benefit of having coordinates in Wikipedia articles. I'm concerned that with several different coordinate templates being called from a large number of different infobox templates, these external sites won't have an easy automated way of extracting location information anymore. Would it be desirable to stick with standard templates for location information? AxelBoldt 20:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I just found out that there's no problem at all; Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Coor_dms will list even those pages that use coor_dms indirectly through another template. Cheers, AxelBoldt 21:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * But then it's still not easy to automatically extract the parameters of the coor_dms template if it was used indirectly through another infobox template. So my original concern stands I suppose. AxelBoldt 21:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * To faciliate such extractions and tools, e.g. a surround search on Interlaken, we could try to standardize the way various infoboxes and templates define coordinates.


 * IMHO we should avoid adding the coordinates several times:
 * Interlaken defines the coodinates in the infobox which is reused by the the header, both link.
 * de:Interlaken needs the coordinates 3 times: once in the infobox (which doesn't even link) and twice to make de:Vorlage:Koordinate Artikel work. BTW Interlaken had the infobox converted from de:Interlaken.
 * The infobox for other municipalities got the coordinates from the French version (similiar to fr:Interlaken where they don't link either).
 * It's already hard to make sure one version is correct, so three ...


 * Alternatively, we could have the Mediawiki GIS extension enabled on Wikipedia. A table with the data could direclty be available in the weekly wikipedia data dump. -- User:Docu

Overlaps
I really love this template, but it needs to be moved below the title, because they're overlapping. See, for example, World War II Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial. --☆ CieloEstrellado 10:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The template itself is overlapping. And it moved above the line without any edit to the template. I wonder, is the problem in the css class? Qyd 14:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No, it moved because the Wikimania 2006 message changed the layout of the page by increasing the space between the top of the page and the title's horizontal rule. It's an unfortunate limitation of the placement CSS that it can't respond to changes like that. It will go away once the WikiMedia Foundation removes that message... &mdash; Saxifrage ✎ 15:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * For some reason, the overlapping only occurs in the dms template. coor title dm and coor title d are rendered just fine above the line. - Qyd(talk)23:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh! You meand the "Coordinates" part and the actual coordinates. Well that's just bizarre. The code looks fine, so I'm not sure what's causing that. Testing it out in the sandbox (diff), it shows up both in the template page and when the template is used. Um. I'm not sure what to do about that. &mdash; Saxifrage ✎ 01:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, it's because an element in the template that this one depends on was changed from an inline-level to block-level, making its wrapping behaviour change. I've asked the editor who changed it (User:Zocky) that it be changed back or a more complicated fix be applied. &mdash; Saxifrage ✎ 01:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Documentation request
I would like to expand the descriptive noinclude text on this template to say:


 * This template places latitude and longitude coordinates for the location listed in the respective article, in the upper-right of the page, just above the horizontal rule running under the article's title. Clicking on the coordinates will take users to an experimental mapsource wiki where they can choose a particular map site to view that location, just as clicking on an ISBN number at a book page will take users to a page where they can choose which library or bookstore they would like to use to get more information about a particular book. After testing, this service may eventually be incorporated into Wikipedia itself.

Thanks. --Elonka 19:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No, it's just fine here, you've said it all! (We don't usually put much on the template itself, that's why there's a separate talk.)
 * --William Allen Simpson 20:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have removed the {editprotected}, the talk page is fine for extended documentation. If you develop consensus for the change, reintroduce {editprotected}.--Commander Keane 08:22, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Interwiki addition
{Editprotected} [[:fi:Malline:Coor title dms]] —Ppntori 21:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Done.--Commander Keane 10:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * {editprotected} [[:fr:Modèle:Coordonnées]]. Cheers, Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 11:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

subst?
Should this be substituted? --Storkk 14:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No. If we want to change the format in the future that would be detrimental. Moreover, the eventual goal of the geocoordinates Wikiproject is to develop a built-in markup for handling coordinates: subst'ing this would make it harder to track down all the pages that contain coordinate information when this needs to be replaced with that markup. Besides, it's really messy inside and substing would only make the wikimarkup more incomprehensible. &mdash; Saxifrage ✎ 21:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Position change, October 14
Has something changed today? The template is now appearing above the line, almost overlapping, for logged-in users. Has something happened to monobook to cause this change? - Crosbiesmith 08:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, the Foundation removed the donation message that was above the line for months before. It's not really noticeable, but those messages move the article body up and down, including the line, and the coordinates are defined relative to the edge of the page. So really, the line moved, not the coordinates. I notice that as of this comment, it's moved again and is below the line once more. (The original intention was for it to be above the line, but obviously the Foundation isn't making sure the page layout is stable.) &mdash; Saxifrage ✎ 20:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It's nice to know someone's keeping an eye on it.  -  Crosbiesmith 09:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

This template does not work (?)
In Cologneblue skin, the word "co-ordinates" and the first part of the latitude appear under the "Go" and "Search" buttons below the Find box, where they are occluded by those buttons, in the sidebar, and the text continues into the article where it finishes underneath the words "The free encyclopedia". The whole appearance is extremely unprofessional. Please remove this template from any articles in which it has been placed, until the problem is fixed. --Tony Sidaway 22:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Cologneblue places it on the upper left corner, below "Wikipedia", "The Free Encyclopedia" (at least on Abu Dhabi). Looks fine in my browser.
 * BTW which page are you viewing? Do you us any browser add-ons? Please don't just remove it if ti doesn't work in your browser. -- User:Docu

Problem with Template:Coor at dm, probably also Template:Coor at d & Template:Coor at dms
User:gadfium and I have experienced a problem with Template:Coor at dm. Basically I switched my skin from default to classic, and the coordinates appear twice, but jammed together (and with nothing at the top). Where is the appropriate talk page (if you have not already done this) and see if it can be resolved (The feature is widely used). For historic reasons the classic-skin should always work. I have not checked any other skins.

Cheers NevilleDNZ


 * For clarification: Coor at dms places the coordinates both inline and in the absolute position, by producing both coor dms and coor title dms from the same set of parameters. Now coor title never worked as intended in the classic skin, it was displayed inline instead of the upper right corner of the page, pretty much like coor dms. Naturally, "coor at dms" will result in basically two "coor dms" in the same spot when viewed in the classic skin. --66.82.9.53 05:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Your explaination describes exactly the problem. I am not a skin-expert. I was thinking that the classic-skin was missing a field, and the value defaulted to being inline. Maybe you are right re: "in the absolute position" top right. Can anyone direct me to a skin expert to help figure out if this problem can be solved, or if it is intractable. If it is intractable, then maybe we only have to evil alternatives. A) delete Coor at dms, or B) delete classic-skin. I know which one is the easy option ☺.

Another option would be to take advantage of the new mediawiki conditional expression. Maybe we can detect if the skin is incompatable, and not pop up the absolute coordinates.

Cheers NevilleDNZ 07:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The conditional stuff won't help, but another trick can be done. The "at top" part can be made invisible by the stylesheet of Classic. Where just the "at top" version is used, no coordinates will show up at all, and where the "at top + inline" version is used only the inline will show up. Would this be an acceptable solution to this particular issue? — Saxifrage ✎ 20:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Invisible may be an option. But will it still allocate a gap (for this hidden text)? and so ill-format the text? I guess as long as it looks OK, then I have no problem. The other issue you may get is cut and paste may get confused and drag out the invisable text. Also prime-evil browsers lynx probably will be challenged.

I suggest you contact User:gadfium, he would be a good choice of as "Γ-tester" as he noticed the problem first on the classic-skin.

NevilleDNZ 09:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hiding the at top field in the classic would be fine for the situation where both the at top and inline versions are used together. Where only the at top version is used, at present this is defaulting to showing the co-ordinates inline, and I am not sure whether this is desirable or a problem. It's desirable in that we get the co-ordinates, but it's undesirable because we have an element appearing which doesn't appear in that position in the monobook skin, and that might spoil layout.


 * I don't know if there are any statistics on how many people use each skin. Since non-logged in users get the monobook skin, it will be used by the vast majority. I've seen somewhere that quite a few old-timers use classic but I can't back up that statement. I don't know how many use other skins; I occasionally use Chick if I'm on a PDA because it cuts out a lot of the border material. It would be nice to solve this problem for all skins, not just for classic.


 * As an alternative approach, is it possible for the "co-ord at" templates to test for the monobook skin and only display if it is in use? That would seem to me to be the simplest approach.- gadfium 18:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Spanish interwiki
Dear administrator, please add the following interwiki:

es:Plantilla:Coor title dms

Thank you in advance, Julian Mendez 19:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Done.- gadfium 19:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much, Julian Mendez 22:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Interlingua interwiki
Dear administrator, please add the following interwiki:

ia:Patrono:Coor title dms

Thank you in advance, Julian Mendez 22:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Done.- gadfium 23:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Moved documentation
Hi, I've moved the documentation from this Talk page to the Template:Coor title dms/doc subpage, as recommended in Template doc page pattern. Please edit the template to: Coordinates: °N, °W

Thanks. +mwtoews 18:38, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done — Mets501 (talk) 02:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Problems today
This is all messed up again, with or without the begging message. See Tadley for example. Can a knowledgeable person take a look? Thanks - Crosbiesmith 14:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Conflicts with "dismiss" button
They overlap. Maybe add a line break at this template's beginning so it moves down one line? Urhixidur 00:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Mixing data
In the case of Tadley, I noticed that the lat/long is implemented twice and still does not redder well in that the two lines overlap. The redundancy bothers me some, but what bothers me even more is that the data is implemented once in decimal and once in DMS. As a purist and an engineer, I am mature enough to not fuss over the minor discrepencies in the data introduced (which could amount to a mere feet or inches or even less on the globe of the Earth) but it seems to be poor data design, or at least uncoordinated implementation of templates. I realize that decimal vs. DMS might be a matter of taste, but we also want to pursue uniformity among the articles. So the two goal I request are: Again, I hope we can see that that I want to avoid duplication of work (by avoiding duplicate conventions that have to be maintained in parallel within a single article) and a "preferred" units so that a uniform product can be presented to the reader has they browse multiple articles. This is probably a long-term goal, but what is needed is more coordination and good-spirit teamwork among the people who maintain the template(s). Is there perhaps a transition plan that I am simply not yet aware of? -- 71.141.230.78 15:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Single, unified implementation so that the data does not tend to be implemented twice in one article
 * A stated, global preference of degrees or DMS, with flexibility

Help please, on the Wookieepedia
Hi. I´m trying to add this template into Wookieepedia, but still unsucessfully. Can anyone with extensive knowladge on these codes help me out? The main thing missing is that the cordinations shoiuld jump up to the right hand corner, but don't. Here's the link to the starwars page Wookieepedia:Template:Coor_title_dms Thanks --Steinninn 14:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Coords are the first line of an article?
I just saw this template in use today for the very first time, on Walt Disney World Resort. I think it looks really strange that the first line of the article - even above the introductory paragraph - is the Coordinates line. Shouldn't the Coordinates be made a little less prominent; do they really deserve to be the very first thing in the article? (I'm using the Classic skin, if that matters.) - Brian Kendig 14:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * If you don't like the coordinates to be above the article, don't use Coord title ;) There are other Coord templates that do not present the coordinates at the top, have a look in Category:Coordinates templates. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Captain scarlet (talk • contribs) 15:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC).


 * Aha, thanks - being as how this was the first time I saw it in use, I didn't realize there were different forms of the template. What are the circumstances in which coordinates should be the very first thing in the article? - Brian Kendig 21:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The template documentation recommends placing it at the bottom of the article to avoid this sort of effect when using Classic. (In other skins, a placement trick that doesn't work in Classic is used to move the the coordinates up to just beside the article title.) When you see this sort of thing, feel free to move it down to just above the interwiki links. — Saxifrage ✎ 14:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Danish interwiki
Please add da:Skabelon:Coor title dms to the list of interwiki links. Thanks. Valentinian T / C 22:50, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Interwiki links should go at Template:Coor title dms/doc, which is not protected. You can add it yourself.- gadfium 00:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Cologne Blue skin
This doesn't work for Cologne Blue skin. Compare, and. You should see the co-ordinates twice, but in the first case you cannot. --Audiovideo


 * My mistake - it is in the far top left - a long way from the article.--Audiovideo 01:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

New template: coord
Please see Coord, which is intended, after testing, to replace the  family of templates. These will then be substituted, throughout Wikipedia, by bot. All functionality is retained. Andy Mabbett 07:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)