Template talk:Football squad start

Transfer
please make another template for transfer of players --Bo yaser (talk) 14:17, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Split docs
editprotected

Please sync with the new sandbox to properly split the documentation. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:40, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ — Jake   Wartenberg  01:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Change as per Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football
Copy code from User:Gnevin/sandbox4 Gnevin (talk) 17:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Ron h jones (Talk) 22:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ron, could you please reduce the column width back down to 1%? Changing it to 15% wreaked havoc with the implementation of the template. – PeeJay 22:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * OK Back to 1% it is (and I took out the " ", that followed it - maybe test the new template in future?  Ron h jones (Talk) 23:24, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Has this change worked? I don't see the footnote on the Watford page that I thought was being added. WFCforLife (talk) 23:16, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It was changed as per request, the result what you get. Although you cannot edit, you can view the source to see the changes.  Ron h jones (Talk) 23:24, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I don't understand why this was added here and not to fs end. – PeeJay 23:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It was add at the top per the discussion above which suggested it be better here than at fs end, the " " is required so the refs don't appear under the flags . ps The change was tested. Gnevin (talk) 01:28, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

editprotect Change as per User:Gnevin/sandbox, allows the user to hide the note per Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football Gnevin (talk) 20:05, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ I had already done this earlier today, forgot to disable the request. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 02:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Current text simply does not ho;d water: ''Flags indicate national team as has been defined under FIFA eligibility rules. Players may hold more than one non-FIFA nationality.'' Many players are eligible for more than one team; FIFA does not define the sporting nationality of such players until they have played in a competitive international. The phrase non-FIFA nationality is so unclear as to be effectively meaningless, and besides, there are surely a significant number opf players with dual (as opposed to the triple/quadruple/quintuple... inferred here) nationality. Kevin McE (talk) 00:22, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Change
editprotect 2 part change ,code can be found User:Gnevin/sandbox will required a second edit to add Unreferenced-Fs in a month. Discussion here Gnevin (talk) 10:43, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅. And just a friendly reminder that the occasional "please" or "thank you" won't go amiss! &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:25, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry my bad. Thanks very much didn't mean to be rude. Gnevin (talk) 13:33, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No worries. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:36, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you revert this change please. It seem WP:BAG want more CON and that will be a long time coming. Thanks Gnevin (talk) 20:30, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅. Thanks, Peter Symonds ( talk ) 20:59, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Please re-add. This was an uncontroverisal element of the edit performed by MSGJ, reverted by Number57 on the wider issue of how to display nationalilty. This change will ensure that the documentation from Template:football squad player/doc is displayed here, rather than creating three duplicate pages.

Please can you also do the same thing on fs mid? Regards, --WFC-- 08:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:56, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Dual-Nationality
Is there a means by which we can address dual-nationality for a player and assign two flags? Erikeltic ( Talk ) 00:55, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There is not. The imprecise nature of nationality designation has lead many of us to seek removal of this from the template, but it has not gained consensus.  To determine "sporting nationality" there are two stages of question: has the individual played national representative football, at any level?  If so, nationality is regarded as the country that he/she most recently appeared for; if not, nationality is recorded as place of birth.  Areas of controversy remain: we are inconsistent as to whether place of birth is as at birth or presently (A player born in the mid 80s in Bratislava was born in Czechoslovakia: is he Czechoslovakian?  His father would be recorded as such); the child born in what was obviously a temporary place of residence of his parents may not wish to be associated with his place of birth as an adult, and may not even be entitled to citizenship there.  Kevin McE (talk) 07:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a sticky wicket, that's for sure. The reason I asked was related to the Mehmet Ekici discussion at FC Bayern Munich.  After some debate, an editor was able to provide me with a WP policy that verified the third editor's position, but I still feel that the flags' intent is very misleading and should be explicit that it reflects the national team for which the footballer plays.   Erikeltic  ( Talk ) 13:56, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * And that policy is what I stated here. I have instigated many attempts to get the header comment about flags re-phrased so that it makes sense, but no phrase has gained consensus. Please do weigh in with suggestions at WT:FOOTY. Kevin McE (talk) 18:11, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Will do. Thanks.   Erikeltic  ( Talk ) 20:06, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Afifhaikal, 30 April 2011



 * Are we to assume that your suggestion is that a picture of each player goes into the temple? Total non-starter: not encyclopaedic, enormous number of players have no free image of decent quality, certainly no uniformity of pic layouts, and to make the template of reasonable proportions, the pic would need to be no more than 30px, which is so small faces may be scarcely recognisable.  Kevin McE (talk) 09:05, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

link change
Please change link in note text from " FIFA eligibility rules " to " FIFA eligibility rules ". -- Club Oranje T 10:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * oh, btw, refer Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football for rationale. -- Club Oranje T 11:06, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * While this link is more appropriate, it does not address the point that the header is deeply flawed. FIFA does not define anyone's nationality, FIFA regulations can allow for a player to have numerous potential representative nationalities, there is no such thing as a non-FIFA nationality, the header does not describe our criteria for determining the flag to be posted, and the vast majority of players have a flag the indicates (assumed) place of birth.  Kevin McE (talk) 11:23, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Link changed, since it seemed appropriate. No opinion about further FIFA nationality specifics that might have to be addressed, but please do discuss if you think they are needed. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 22:00, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Proposal for header
(Following on from TheDJ's invitation to discuss above) It has been discussed at WT:FOOTY several times, but the multiplicity of proposals has stifled any conclusion. Basically the flag is determined by:
 * 1) most recent national team represented, at any level, with only nations recognised by FIFA considered eligible.
 * 2) place of birth (again, using FIFA registered determinants of nationality)
 * 3) Which would seem simple enough, but then we have those born in a place which would not be considered their native land because their mother was there temporarily (we could imagine a team listing including Cruz Beckham in years to come, for example), changes in national boundaries (the man born in Czechoslovakia in 1989 can't have a Czechoslovakian flag in 2011: is the determinant of being Czech or Slovak now a matter of place of birth or ethnicity), and in some parts of the world (the Balkans are the most obvious), ethnicity can be far more descriptive of identity than place of birth.

The complexity of the issue (and the lack of relevance of nationality to a player's place in a squad) is such that many of us have suggested that we shouldn't show nationality at all, or at least not for players without representative history, but that has never gained consensus.

Nevertheless, the current header is simply meaningless: FIFA's rules do not define any one from multiple eligibilities that a player might have, and the concept of a non-FIFA nationality is, at best, novel.

Header to read Flag indicates national team most recently represented, or place of birth where this is not applicable, or as otherwise stated.
 * Proposal

Any exceptions to this should be explained using the other field
 * or (real one here, whose current flag does not follow our rules)
 * or (real one here, whose current flag does not follow our rules)

Unless there is evidence for representation or place of birth, flag column should be left blank. Kevin McE (talk) 09:36, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

(team captain)
I haven't seen an article using. They all display "(captain)."

Header- add "Nat"
In the Android Wikipedia app (at least on my Moto X), the nationality flags are not displayed, instead it only shows a minimum-width column with dots instead of flags. On other team sport templates (eg. Template:Ice hockey team roster) that have nationality flags, they have Nat at the top of the nationality column and the flags show up without a problem.

Would there be any objection to adding Nat to the header to ensure the flags are displayed across all platforms?

Bonus question, should we add a link to "Position" so it is Position ?

It would end up as: {| border="0" instead of {| border="0"
 * style="background-color:#FFFFFF;vertical-align:top;" width="48%"|
 * style="background-color:#FFFFFF;vertical-align:top;" width="48%"|
 * style="background-color:#FFFFFF;vertical-align:top;" width="48%"|
 * style="background-color:#FFFFFF;vertical-align:top;" width="48%"|


 * }
 * }

Num1dgen (talk) 20:28, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 1 February 2020
I would like to undo the latest revision by user Koavf. The "squad roster" looks totally awkward everywhere. Penepi (talk) 12:21, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Perhaps a discussion would help clarify the reason for that edit, since there was no edit summary or link to a discussion. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:34, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * has, without discussion, reverted my restoration of the longtime consensus version of this template on accessibility grounds. This template is used in 15,125 articles and should not be subject to this sort of rapid change. Koavf, please engage in a discussion here. The change to the template does not look good at all. At a minimum, the template's additional header should have bold formatting and a colored background to match the column headings. Please make changes in the template's sandbox to make the formatting look better, and discuss those changes here. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:53, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , I didn't see the post here by . I have made the caption bold per your request but I'm not sure what you have in mind for the coloring. For those of you who want to understand more about table captions, please see Manual_of_Style/Accessibility/Data_tables_tutorial: this is a high-priority accessibility concern. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 14:12, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * ,, It is still completely pointless to have "Squad roster" in the template. User always knows that he is looking at a squad roster as the section itself is usually called "Squad" or something similar. Moreover, this template is also used, for example, for summary of transfers -- and that is not really a squad roster. – Penepi (talk) 14:18, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , I am happy to change the text to something that others think is better. It's unfortunate that it's protected so that the process is more drawn-out and personality-dependent. I'm also about to go to sleep, so you may want to involve another template editor. I do want there to be consensus and I don't want the protection level to keep the community from having the best option for what this caption should be. Ping me to let me know how I can help. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 14:20, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , Is it really necessary to have any text there? Look at this, for instance - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Slovak_football_transfers_winter_2019%E2%80%9320 I hope you agree it is completely ridiculous there. Also here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_F.C.#Players - as I mentioned earlier, the section itself is clearly and obviously Squad, no need to put any header there. – Penepi (talk) 14:24, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , Yes, it is necessary. Did you read the link I provided above? Accessibility is not some afterthought annoyance for those of us who may not immediately need the caption. Please also see the Wikimedia Foundation statement on accessibility, Accessibility, and Accessibility. I don't want to put words in your mouth and I'm assuming good faith on your part but it sounds like you're saying that we should forgo accessibility to other users because you have some mild annoyance. I sincerely hope that is not what you are suggesting and I want to work with you here on how to make this template maximally accessible and useful. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 14:31, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , I am not quite sure I am really getting you. What is the problem with that accessibility? Everyone knows what they are looking at with this particular template. Paradoxically, you are doing the exact opposite of "accessibility" as the header is completely misleading on certain pages and there is no meaningful, universal text that would fit them all as I proved above. – Penepi (talk) 14:36, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I've restored the page per, this does not improve "accessibility" when the text is meaningless on many articles. S.A. Julio (talk) 15:42, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree, the caption is not needed as this is used under a "Squad/Current squad/roster" section. Kante4 (talk) 15:53, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , the template was stable for over five years. This is not an emergency. I agree with you that accessibility needs to be addressed. Please make proposed changes in the sandbox for discussion. There is a discussion here that may be useful. Also please keep in mind that any changes made to this template may also affect how it looks when used with fs mid, as shown at Arsenal F.C.. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:05, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * , Accessibility is not an afterthought: this needs to have a caption for the table. ―Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:54, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Make a proposed change in the template's sandbox, see how it looks on the testcases page, and get feedback from interested editors. That is the best way to make changes to a widely used template such as this one if your initial attempt meets significant resistance. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:30, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

width="100%"
Edit suggestion: 

{| border="0" width="100%"
 * style="background-color:#FFFFFF;vertical-align:top;"|
 * style="background-color:#FFFFFF;vertical-align:top;"|

I'm suggesting this because I see many player lists of clubs are so closely packed together. ChampsRT (talk) 15:14, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅ * Pppery * it has begun... 18:04, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I've undone this as it creates a huge gap between the two parts of the squadlist on screens. Please test things like this in the sandbox to see their effect (testcases) before requesting. Number   5  7  21:00, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry. I did actually test this in the sandbox, but the gaps didn't appear in my browser for some reason. * Pppery * it has begun... 22:19, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * No problem (the testcases page wasn't using the sandbox version of start/mid for some reason), plus my comment was really for the original proposer anyway. Cheers, Number   5  7  22:44, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 18 February 2022
Can someone bring back the blue color in the header because it was more preferred and the modification in August 2020 was done without discussion?--Sakiv (talk) 02:32, 18 February 2022 (UTC) Sakiv (talk) 02:32, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: It would appear that the change was made after multiple discussions referring to the merger between Football squad player & Football squad player2, and since the change was made over 18 months ago, there should probably be a discussion to change it back with a WP:SILENT consensus on this style. Templates afterall are used to maintain consistency between articles and therefore should be consistent between similar style and use templates, if there has not been a discussion to change this. Terasail [✉️] 15:29, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Problems with accessibility and mobile version
This table currently has huge issues with accessibility and the mobile version because it implements a table for visual purposes (and also because it splits the tables in two). I suggest to someone who can actually test all the test cases to at least transfer the table wrapping to Col-begin which does the same thing while displaying more accessibly.

Currently, one accessibility issue can be fixed by adding   after the first opening. In addition, you could, in theory, fix the mobile issue by adding  there.

Additionally, the template code needs an additional  after  because otherwise, the template documentation displays inside the table. stjn 16:10, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I have implemented the table-closing part (Additionally, the template code) of this request. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:54, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * on the outer table should also be uncontroversial, it doesn’t do anything other than removing the table semantics. stjn 01:07, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ that. * Pppery * it has begun... 20:41, 31 July 2023 (UTC)