Template talk:Herbs & spices/Archive 1

Scope
Can I perhaps suggest that this template be in fact limited to herbs, spices, and seasonings and not attempt to include "condiments", which is even harder to define than the other categories? At the moment, I have to confess that it appears to be a rather random assortment of foods. Cucumber? Tomato? &mdash;Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. And it is far too large, dominating most of the pages it occupies (and has been placed too high up many of them, above references, instead of at the bottom where it should be). Split up into several smaller templates, if they are necessary at all. - MPF 11:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I also agree. Including condiments in herbs and spices makes it almost synonymous with food. I can't think of anything right off that you can't put on a pizza or sandwich.  I am in favor of just deleting the condiments section.  If someone wants to create a condiments template, that is a different matter, but I still think it would be too big to be useful.  -- WormRunner 15:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Per this discussion, I have removed the condiments section of the table. I would suggest if someone feels the need for a condiments template, that it should be a separate page.  -- WormRunner 01:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I added parsley because it seems common enough to be included. Also, I removed BBQ sauce and Worcestershire sauce because they are condiments, and it seems consensus is not to include them. Revert if I'm wrong. --Ed (Edgar181) 17:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with the elimination of the condiments. I added chipotle to the chart, under spices. -Rangermike 01:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

What about horseradish? It seems to be used more as a condiment rather than as a spice. Salanth 17:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Breakdown
How are things being divided between "Seasonings", and "Herbs and Spices"? It seems rather arbitrary right now, since cinnamon is a spice. I consider seasonings as materials that are not normally used as flavouring, such as onion powder (usually the food), are not plant products, such as vinigar or salt, or are very heavily refined products, such as vanilla extract, where as Herbs and Spices are simple plant products that are usually used exclusively as flavouring agents, usually just dried, and maybe ground. (Herbs being the leaves of a plant and Spices coming from other parts of the plant) Just my thoughts. --Nekura 18:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we should make it "Herbs, Spices and Other Seasonings" where only the heavily refined ingredients are classed as other seasonings, because herbs and spices really are types of seasonings. Oh, we'll have to leave curry powder in Other Seasonings too, as it's a mixture of spices. I shall begin by moving a few spices out of the seasonings section. Nick 17:28, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Seasonings section
... It looks like a hopeless catch-all to me. If it can include lemon and curry powder, there are probably on the order of 300 or more other flavoring ingredients that could go in there too. (See for example Category:Herb and spice mixtures and Category:Sweeteners.) I'm proposing to eliminate that section and leave just herbs and spices; who's with me? &mdash;Bunchofgrapes (talk) 02:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've done it. &mdash;Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Cannabis?
Cannabis sativa might be a herb in the botanical sense, but is it used for flavour in cooking? Given its quite bitter and unpleasant taste I rather doubt that. Mind you, (non-psychoactive) cannabis seeds and oil are certainly used, but the article is Hemp not Cannabis.

Although, the template does mention "enhanc[ing] existing flavours", which cannabis can do by a roundabout route...

Eleland 16:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure who added that, but I do have a cookbook called "The Rasta Cookbook," I think published in the UK, and in the preface it says that marijuana is "the only herb unlimited by dish," and "embellishes all dishes, whether boiled, steamed, or fried." So at least one culinary tradition apparently does use it in this manner.  Badagnani 17:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Please do not include cannabis, it is not an an excepted food flavoring. The article does not cover the subject of foods or cuisines, only its narcotic and industrial use. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 06:36, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I have the cookbook at hand, and did not mistake the text, which I provided just above. Whether you wish or hope that the Rastafarian culinary tradition did not use it is immaterial. Badagnani (talk) 06:56, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I should qualify that by saying that one species, Cannabis sativa, is used in such a manner, and not all species in the genus (the genus article is currently linked). Badagnani (talk) 06:57, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Reading the above discussion, I see that Hemp addresses the consumption as food of the leaves of C. sativa, so I've switched out the "Cannabis" wikilink for a "Hemp" one. Badagnani (talk) 07:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Addition of sansho to Sichuan pepper
I think if "sansho" is added in parentheses after Sichuan pepper, "hua jiao" should also be added. Or neither. This spice is better known in English-speaking regions, I believe, regarding its use in the Sichuan cuisine of China, than it is known regarding its use in Japanese cuisine. Badagnani 04:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I added "sansho" to Sichuan pepper, as in cookbooks of Japanese cuisine printed in English usually refer to the seasoning as "sansho" or "sansho pepper". Cookbooks of Chinese cuisine printed in English usually refer to the seasoning as "Sichuan pepper" (or the more dated Wade-Giles derived "Szechuan pepper").  For a long time, I did not realize that these two spices were derived from the same plant.  Additionally, in Japanese cuisine, more parts of the plant, especially the leaves are used in cooking -- I have not yet encountered a reference to cooking with "Sichuan pepper leaves".  jchristopher 01:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Right, but how widespread is sansho in Japanese cuisine as compared to its prevalence in Chinese cuisine? I've never encountered it in a Japanese restaurant, for example (although, admittedly, the only time I've been served a Sichuan dish that actually had Sichuan peppercorns in a Chinese restaurant was in China! Badagnani 02:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Sansho is actually quite an important spice in Japanese cuisine. It is one of the 7 component spices of togarashi shichimi (Japanese 7-spice powder).  The peppercorns are used to flavor soups, and the leaves are often used to provide flavor and garnish to many dishes.  Again, if in doubt, a quick internet search will reveal the use of the herb in Japanese dishes as well as the use of the name "sansho" in English in these recipes. jchristopher 02:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Lemon balm and other lesser-used herbs
I have reinstated lemon balm in the herbs list on this template. Although lemon balm has been out of favor a culinary herb (in the US, at least) for some time, it is currently undergoing a minor resurgence in use in desserts, confections, and even cocktails, partly as a novelty and partly for its very strong lemony scent and flavor, and has consistently been used in tisanes. Use of lemon balm as a culinary herb can be confirmed on the internet (e.g., see http://www.cooks.com/rec/search/0,1-0,lemon_balm,FF.html), as well as in hardcopy cookbooks (Rombauer, Joy of Cooking, 1975 edition).

There is a possibility here that the herb and spice template may become too long and unwieldy if all possible herbs and spices used (or used historically) on the planet are included. Should this occur, then perhaps there should be discussion about the establishment of criteria for inclusion. jchristopher 02:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Font size
I don't support the change of the font size from 90 to 100 percent. It's a big template and the smaller font helps to keep it from dominating an article in which it is used. Badagnani 17:52, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Add caspicum?
I find it odd that a number of varieties of pepper are included, but I don't see a link here to Capsicum. It is an important spice to Ethiopian cusine, where it is called barbaré. Any objections if I add it? -- llywrch 17:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Capsicum is in the template, called by its English common name "chili." Badagnani 18:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Berbere has a lot of other things in it and is in the template Template:Herb and spice mixtures. Badagnani 18:54, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's odd. If I read Richard Pankhurst's An Introduction to the Medical History of Ethiopia correctly, he calls capsicum "red pepper"; it's fair to say that Pankhurst writes accurately about Ethiopian subjects -- which is why I'm qualifying my understanding, not his. If he's not oversimplifying, could barbare be one of those things (like meatloaf) whose contents vary with the cook? -- llywrch 20:28, 10 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If you're talking about something that is just red pepper powder (like cayenne pepper), then it's not berbere. There's probably an Ethiopian name for that. Look at our Berbere page or do some searching, and you'll see that berbere includes red chili pepper powder as well as other things like rue, bishop's weed, cloves, etc. Regarding the term "capsicum," it's a synonym (from the Latin name) for "red chili" (the term "pepper" isn't really accurate because it refers to the plant that produces black pepper). Badagnani 21:14, 10 November 2007 (UTC)