Template talk:Herbs & spices/Archive 2

Should sauce & condiment pages use this?
I noticed there are a number of sauce and condiment pages which use this template. For example, Ranch dressing, Cocktail sauce, Italian dressing, French dressing, Relish, Remoulade, Cholula hot sauce. As it has been decided not to include condiments on this list, I'm wondering if it belongs on those pages. It seems out of place, especially for those sauces which use only one or two herbs and spices. Dforest (talk) 00:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Those articles should probably have their own templates (for "wet" condiments, dressings, and sauces). Badagnani (talk) 00:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Nasturtium
I'm wondering if this belongs here. According to the article, its seed pods may be pickled like capers, but I don't see mention of it used as a spice per se. Dforest (talk) 19:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a hard one. Is it really a spice? I'm not even sure vanilla or tonka beans should be called "spices," though they're used as seasonings. Badagnani (talk) 19:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I think nasturtium fits better with the herbs; cress leaves are used in fines herbes, for example. Gernot Katzer, whose website is one of our best online resources for herbs and spices, refers to it as a herb. I think this one was just misclassified.

As for vanilla & tonka bean, why wouldn't they be considered spices? They fit our current criteria, in that they are seeds, and "added to food for flavour or to enhance existing flavours, and which may be used for that purpose in quantities with negligible nutritional value." Admittedly the criteria leave some room for ambiguity, especially in determining what is considered "negligible nutritional value". Are there some other criteria we should be using? Dforest (talk) 20:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a food template
This template covers herbs and spices that are used for flavoring purposes, as stated in the section. It these herbs have a use in the field of herbal remedies, then a separate template should be commissioned. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 06:39, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The description already said that, and a great number of culinary herbs are *also* used for medicinal purposes. To give you an example, cinnamon is used in traditional Chinese medicine, and rosemary is used in European herbalism. Badagnani (talk) 06:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know, I looked it up. However, it is not by definition a food herb. It is a drug. I could add coca to the list because it is used in several several South American cuisines as a flavoring, Google it. However, these items are not considered herbs or spices. I will accept it if you can find a legitimate cooking guide that lists it as a spice, otherwise I will RfC it.

Also, I understand that many are in fact used in herbal medicine. However the point of this template is food flavoring additives from certain plans, not medicinal herbs. There really should be a separate template for that. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 07:06, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I have just added a sentence saying "Medicinal herbs that are not used for cooking purposes should not be added to this template." This clarifies that medicinal herbs that are not used as or in food should not be added. Again, a great number of the herbs in this template, which are widely used as food (such as basil) or to flavor food (such as bay leaves) are also used as medicines. It really isn't possible to insist that they be one or the other, when in fact many traditions utilize the same herbs for both purposes. Badagnani (talk) 07:07, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

That is very logical and I accept that, good call. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 16:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The use of hemp leaves in food is widespread in Rastafarian cuisine, as documented in the Rasta Cookbook I possess. I think I mentioned that earlier. It is very clear about this. Part of our project involves maintaining a pluralistic outlook about the world's culinary traditions, and being willing to learn new things. Badagnani (talk) 07:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

That is true, however we must accept consensus with stuff here, we both know that. As much as we believe something to be correct, we have to follow what the consensus is and, in this situation, that is not to include cannabis in the template. In the history, it has been removed by several contributors with only you restoring it. If you say there is a better link to a non-THC version of hemp that can be included, I will accept that.

The inclusion of cannabis and coca leaves in certain cuisines really should be in the controversial foods article as they are illegal in most countries and socially frowned upon in most societies. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 16:46, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think coca (from what I understand a thick, inedible leaf, like bay leaves or boldo leaves) is comparable to those leaves as it's mostly used for tea and cuisine applications appear to be in the brainstorming stage at this moment, from what I read online. Badagnani (talk) 16:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Dill seed
I don't think dill seed would be an herb; like fennel seed it would be a spice. Badagnani (talk) 00:51, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Merge
Message regarding merge of Template:Herbs & spices with Template:Herb and spice mixtures" left for User:Edgar181, the only active editor who had earlier commented at this template's discussion page. Badagnani (talk) 06:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Pomegranate
Pomegranate should be changed to Anardana (pomegranate seeds) and be alphabetized properly. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 16:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * "Pomegranate seed" is an English word and anardana is a romanized Indic name that is little known outside South Asian communities, thus the current alphabetization seems most appropriate, following WP style. Badagnani (talk) 17:08, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Documenation
The inline documentation needs to be removed and replaced with the documentation tag in the section. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 16:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Sassafras
Sassafras, the plant, needs to be removed and replaced with filé powder, as this is the spice derived from the plant.


 * That seems reasonable, but I am not yet convinced that the roots have not also been used for culinary purposes. Badagnani (talk) 17:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Box structure
change to Navbox with collapsible groups. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 17:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * First, the herb and spice mixtures should be removed. Badagnani (talk) 18:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

No place for editorial comments, that is what the discussion is for. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 18:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Please do not attempt to tell another editor what comments to make. I evaluated the statement and made a comment, which should be accepted in good faith. Thank you for your consideration in this matter. Badagnani (talk) 18:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Golpar
Please add the Persian spice Golpar to this list. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Golpar1 (talk • contribs) 06:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Please add Persian Spice Golpar
Please add Persian Spice Golpar


 * ✅ Thanks, PeterSymonds (talk)  11:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Commercial brands

 * Comment - Please leave in the widely used and well known commercial brands such as Mrs. Dash, as discussed above. Badagnani (talk) 16:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Reply to comment - When I read this comment my first thought was that it was a joke. My second thought was to hit the comment, and the template, with a  tag - I hadn't heard of Mrs. Dash or any of the others until I came across the template.  These things are not herbs (plant leaves used as seasonings) or spices (other parts of plants used as seasonings) - they are commercial seasonings.  What is needed here is a separate  template. I'd create one, but let's achieve consensus first.  Philip Trueman (talk) 17:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - Mrs. Dash is a very widespread herb/spice mixture, but perhaps not available where you live. Like Berbere is used in Ethiopia, Mrs. Dash is as widely available and widely used in North America. Its commercial nature doesn't necessitate a new template, in that it's useful to have the "cultural" spice mixtures and the brand name ones (of which there are only a few that are very notable) together. As another example, Old Bay Seasoning doesn't differ much from Crab boil, thus it is eminently logical to have them together in a single template. Badagnani (talk) 17:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I wholly agree with Phil. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 17:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - It would be great if you could address the actual content of the comment, showing that Old Bay Seasoning is essentially and fundamentally a form of crab boil, and that keeping them together in a single template is eminently logical for our users. Badagnani (talk) 17:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Reply to comment - How would you feel about splitting out the commercial mixtures - there seem to be at least four - into a separate group within the template? Philip Trueman (talk) 18:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I wholly agree with Phil, they should be separate either in its own template or its own section in this one. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 18:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Harissa
Is Harissa an herb and spice mixture? It actually seems like a sauce. Badagnani (talk) 17:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I would go with a spicy dish as opposed to a spice. That is how the article reads to me. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 17:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It's clearly not a dish, as you imply, but a tomato sauce containing spices. If it is removed, then the Thai curry pastes such as Massaman curry would most likely have to be removed as well. However, I'm not certain that spices have to be in dried, granulated form at all times, as the Thai take things like galanga and turmeric and smash the fresh ones to make these spice pastes. Badagnani (talk) 17:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It's really not a good idea to refer to Harissa as a dish, as you just did again: "it is a spiced dish". Badagnani (talk) 18:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I am reading the article and using its contents as a guideline. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 18:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC) Accidental cut and paste error. My fault.

The Harissa article does not state that this paste is a dish. Which text at the Harissa article, in your estimation, refers to this paste as a dish? Badagnani (talk) 19:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Mixed use article, quotes as dish, condiment and other uses. Edit was made based upon this line in the third paragraph: In Tunisia, harissa is served at virtually every meal as part of an appetizer along with olives and tuna.. I will restore this one. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 19:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Massaman curry
What is going on? In this edit, you state that masuman is a commercial product. That is absolutely incorrect. It simply means something like "Malay curry" and is often prepared from scratch. Why are you not discussing first, then using edit summaries that contain factually incorrect information? Badagnani (talk) 18:39, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The can of curry paste in the photo contains chili peppers (40%), garlic (20%), onion (15%), spice (10%), tamarind juice (10%), and sugar (5%). Badagnani (talk) 18:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The article states it is a dish, not a spice. I am reading the article and using its contents as a guideline. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 18:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Please discuss here first. The newest edit summary: "Incorrect summary in previousedit: remove Masuman is a dish not a herb/spice mixture (stated in the article)" is again incorrect. In this case, the article is wrong (or half right). Masuman is a general term for the "Malay" flavor of Thai curry. As such, it is an adjective that may apply to "Masuman curry paste" or "Masuman curry" (the dish made from the curry paste). Please use discussion first in the future, before making edits based on false assumptions. Thanks, Badagnani (talk) 18:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If the article is to be included, the article will need to be edited. As it stands now the very first line is Massaman curry (Thai: แกงมัสมั่น; kaeng matsaman or gaeng masaman. ) is a  Thai dish  that is Muslim in origin. The article is clearly not about a curry paste but Thai cuisine. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 19:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The paste and dish are closely related enough that both can be discussed under the name "Masuman." Again, the term "Masuman" refers to either the paste or the curry (dish). Badagnani (talk) 19:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The article does not state that it is a spice. The contents do not lie, they are what they are and the article is about a dish. Create an article for the spice, then we can include it. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 19:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

No, none of the Thai curry pastes are spices. They are herb/spice mixtures, often with other ingredients that are neither herbs nor spices. Hence the need for discussion. Badagnani (talk) 19:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Please don't parse words, you know what I am saying. Create an article about the HERB & SPICE MIXTURE Masuman so that it can be included in the template. It is currently a redirect, so you will need to correct any links that refer to the HERB & SPICE MIXTURE versus the Thai dish. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 19:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I see now that we had a redirect and that the title of the article has "curry" in it. That's fine to point out, but the use of all capital letters is considered rude at Wikipedia (as well as anywhere else on the Internet). Badagnani (talk) 19:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)