Template talk:Infobox NFL biography/Archive 6

Edit request: remove UFL stats legacy coding
Can you completely remove all coding for United Football League (UFL) statistics from the template, leaving no legacy coding whatsoever? The UFL was a pro football minor league, and optional fields for UFL statistics should never have been added to the template in the first place -- no other pro sports bio infobox includes fields for minor league stats. Moreover, a quick key word search of this template talk page shows that the addition of the UFL stats fields was never discussed. This is another step in getting this template's optional fields under control, and beginning the process of reducing its length. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I've semi-boldly removed the UFL params.—Bagumba (talk) 09:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit request: create talk page archive
Please create the necessary coding to create a talk page archive (preferably by calender year) for this template. The length of this talk page has grown too long, and there are several discussions above that are out-dated and misleading as to current practices. Auto-archiving would also help bring some order and focus to future template discussions. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:04, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * added standard numeric incremented archives since there are some large year gaps, and to keep a semi-uniform archive page size. Frietjes (talk) 18:38, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit request: create tracking categories for "currentposition" & "currentpositionplain"
Please create tracking categories for the "currentposition" and "currentpositionplain" parameters/template fields. These two parameters are deprecated and are a legacy of previous infobox templates that have been merged into the current Template:Infobox NFL player. These two parameters are redundant to "position" parameter, but they need to be removed/replaced manually to insure that the fields are properly coded for linking purposes. The first step to removing/replacing these parameters is to identify the transclusions of the template where they are still being used. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:22, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Why not just remove them from documentation, but leave the functionality in to save us the undue busy work of converting them?—Bagumba (talk) 20:18, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Bagumba, I previously removed these two deprecated parameters from the "field list" some time ago; I have now remove both parameters from the "Parameters and instructions" section as well. I still wanted to get some idea of what the scope of the present use of the two deprecated parameters is.  If it's practical, I would like to remove/replace these parameters from every transclusion of the template as part of a general clean-up.  Updating the template as actually used goes a long toward preventing the perpetuation of deprecrated coding by editors who simply cut and paste old copies of the template from existing articles into new articles.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:39, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * added Category:NFL player with currentposition parameter, but it will take some time to fill up, and will only trigger if these parameters are non-blank. I can expand it to find blank ones as well, but this is probably a good first step. Frietjes (talk) 18:39, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit request: remove databaseFootball.com link parameter
Please remove the parameter to link to the player's profile at databaseFootball.com. DatabaseFootball.com is a zombie website that has not been updated in four years (2011) and was never a particularly good collection of statistical data in the first place. When we are scrutinizing this overly long, overly complex template for opportunities to reduce its length, this should be an easy and non-controversial cut. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:01, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * removed Frietjes (talk) 18:40, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

TemplateData
TemplateData, which is used by VisualEditor, was removed from documentation by User:Codename Lisa with this edit. Lisa's concern was that the format was not encoded entirely correct. For example, "coachdebutyear / coachdebutteam" should not be place as one entry, but as two separate entries. Further explanation can be found at Lisa's talk page if anyone is interested in re-introducing this.—Bagumba (talk) 19:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Labels
Is there a reason that this template (and other sports templates) doesn't use table headers, i.e. labelX, for field labels? Bold text carries no "semantic meaning". Alakzi (talk) 02:24, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Alakzi I agree with you. -- Magioladitis (talk) 10:13, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Ugh. That needs to be fixed, ASAP. Not only is it a semantic issue, muddling data and labels, it's also most significantly an accessibility issue. How many infoboxes are affected? Are there enough to make it worth writing a script to fix? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:02, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * These are the other ones I found: Template:Infobox baseball biography; Template:Infobox MLB player; Template:Infobox college football player; Template:Infobox rugby league biography. The first two are due to be merged, so it can be sorted out then. I'll start on this one. Alakzi (talk) 11:46, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Infobox rugby league biography needs to be converted, if possible, to use Infobox. Its sub-templates could be merged in to it at the same time, too. I'll look at Infobox college football player. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Done here; check the testcases. I've got rid of Template:Infobox NFL player/stats in the process. Alakzi (talk) 12:26, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Nice work, thank you. I've made it live. The only significant visual change is that weight and height are now on separate lines. I do have some general concerns, such as the use of  (why not style a bottom border?), the use of   (why not  ?) and the use of inline styles such as , when the parent templates base styles are supposed to suffice.  Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I've removed the . or  doesn't really make any difference; they've both got zero semantic value. s are block-level elements, so they can be used to style the background of headers without having to apply  . I've no idea why the leading was reduced. It seems to be common practice in sportsperson infoboxes. Alakzi (talk) 15:04, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Please restore the previous appearance of this infobox. You have significantly altered the interior justification of parameter fields, the font size, the interior spacing, and the overall dimensions.  I have zero objection to cleaning up the coding; changing the physical layout and design, however, is not an "improvement."  Thanks.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:05, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The overall dimensions remain untouched; the font is a whole .3 px smaller, which makes absolutely no difference in its rendering; the spacing between labels and values has been very slightly reduced. Please see the testcases. Alakzi (talk) 15:13, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Alakzi, can the simplified parameter labels not be used with the existing layout and design, including existing interior justification? Please note some parameter fields were left justified, others were center justified; none were justified along a defined interior line as is the case now.  Also, can we get font size examples of 100%, 95%, 90% and 85% of main body text?  This infobox had a distinct appearance; that was intentional, not accidental.  FYI, the examples in the test cases incorporate numerous deprecated parameters and WP:NFL non-standard formatting.  I am updating these test cases so we can get some real world examples of how these would actually look with fully loaded "pastteams," "highlights" and "stats" parameters, correctly formatted per WP:NFL standards and the template instructions.  This may take some time.  Please bear with me.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:58, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Alakzi, can the simplified parameter labels not be used with the existing ... No, that's not possible to do with Infobox. It can be done with plain HTML markup, but it'll no longer be "simplified". none were justified along a defined interior line as is the case now. Not true; that's how all of the statistics sections (four in total) were justified. Also, can we get font size examples of 100%, 95%, 90% and 85% of main body text? You can try it in your browser; Google "how to use the developer tools in ". This infobox had a distinct appearance; that was intentional, not accidental. Well, there better be good reason for this distinct appearance. Imagine if all infoboxes sported their own distinct appearance. Alakzi (talk) 16:11, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I've implemented the column-less style in the sandbox, but—franky—I don't see what's to like about it, and it might break in quite unexpected ways. Alakzi (talk) 16:30, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * "This infobox had a distinct appearance; that was intentional, not accidental." No "good reason" needs to be provided; there is no policy or guideline that requires every Wikipedia infobox to use the very simple (and arguably primitive) graphics of, for example, Template:Infobox person or Template:Infobox sportsperson.  Even Andy's "Infobox consolidation" essay does not dare suggest that there is a "standard appearance"; there never has been, and you will find very strong pockets of resistance to any such standard.   Changing the existing typography, graphics, layout and design of Infobox MLP player (mentioned above), for example, to something that resembles Infobox person would be a significant step backwards in terms of layout and design.  The baseball editors, of whom there are many, will strongly resist any such attempt to "standardize" the appearance of Infobox MLB player.  Not everything on Wikipedia must look the same, and there is no policy or guideline that says that it must.


 * As for the statistics section of this infobox, yes, I acknowledge that it is justified on an interior line, but it was the only section that was. As the stats section exists in your proposed revision, that interior justification line has been moved to the left, causing the longer parameter labels to line-wrap to two lines of text (see, e.g., examples with "Quarterback sacks" as a stat in this section).  The other sections that were not left-justified were center-justified (position, personal information, career information).  If you move the interior-justification line to the right to a fixed point, so that the longest optional stat parameter labels (e.g., "Quarterback sacks", "Quarterback rating", "Field goal attempts") do not line wrap, then there should be no problem making the changes to the stats section as you propose.  In the case of the stats section, the displayed data are almost always 1- to 5-digit numbers, which take up very little, and the displayed data are usually shorted than the parameter labels.  Bottom line: we want to avoid line-wraps of the stat parameter labels.


 * FYI, the height and weight should be on separate lines regardless of what we do here; as presently "no-wrap" coded, this is the primary reason why this template sometimes appears to be too wide in actual use. There has also been previous discussion about reducing the font size, too, but not to the font size used in Infobox person.  I will experiment with the font size coding, as you suggest above, to see if there is a better solution for font size.  Thanks for your help and your patience.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:19, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I prefer the two-column style, but I'll defer to the judgment of baseball regulars. I've implemented both styles in the sandbox. I think I've done my part here; I don't wish to debate this at length. Alakzi (talk) 17:25, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to drive you off. I'm asking for your help.  Are you willing to explore the graphics, layout and design options with me?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:05, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Dirtlawyer1, I respect you greatly, but I'd really rather not spend my time on toying with the style of this infobox. Alakzi (talk) 18:14, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, Alakzi. We're all volunteers here, and your time is your time.  I have no claim on it.  You have already created a working sandbox version of the revised template that incorporates the simplified coding for the parameter labels, as suggested by Magioladitis.  I assume you have no objection if I invite other template editors to toy with the style of this infobox, correct?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:58, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * No objection at all. Alakzi (talk) 19:00, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your work on this. The centred version will likely be much harder for some people (those with cognitive issues such as dyslexia, for example) to read. I also believe that other editors should be able to compare the current template (i.e. reverted to how it was before today) with today's improved version, that it was reverted from. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:37, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The centred version is definitely more difficult to scan at a glance, dyslexia or no dyslexia, and I do not recommend its use. I can't think of any good reason why it's done this way, and none has been provided. Of course, I never did claim there to be a policy or guideline or anything of the sort. The default's a good default and hence why there needs to be justification for straying from it. It's used in myriads of other infoboxes besides Infobox person. This isn't about applying a bit of colour—though we should always be mindful of WP:CONTRAST—but about changing the markup and layout in ways that do not conform with our WP:ACCESSIBILITY guidelines and good design practices. I thought I said I wasn't gonna get dragged into this... Alakzi (talk) 18:06, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh, FFS. WP:BIKESHED. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:42, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * "FFS?" I had an appropriately uncivil response, Andy, but instead I respectfully request that you try to understand the concerns of the actual users of the template.  Andy's way is not the only way.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:19, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I do understand your concerns. I understand them (leastways, those of them not already shown to have been bogus) to be trivial, and petty. Do you understand the concerns that the current box has accessibility issues, and poor semantic design? Your reply to Alakzi, above, is full of straw men, yet ignores those significantly more ipmactful issues, and the accessibility guidelines on the use of tables, which are part of the MoS. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:28, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Andy, when I see a comment like yours above, I really wonder whether I should respond at all. You have a coding-driven perspective.  Technical coding concerns are not the only thing that drives our infobox layout and design.  There are no "strawmen" in my comments above; only inquiries as to how to preserve as much of the existing distinctive layout and design as possible.  Insulting other editors who do not share your perspective buys you nothing.  Why don't you join the discussion, and try to address some of the issues raised in a constructive manner, rather than dismissing them?  I would hope that someone with your sophisticated level of coding experience could understand and address a simple problem of line-wrapping in parameter labels.  Are you willing to do acknowledge and address such problems?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:05, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Accessibility - making our content available to everyone, regardless of what equipment they use or what disabilities affect them - is not a "coding-driven perspective". So I guess the answer to my question is no; you do not understand the concerns that the current box has accessibility issues. Perhaps you should leave its redesign to those of us who do. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:26, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Please cite the specific provision of WP:ACCESS at issue, please. I'm a pretty smart guy, Andy, so if you explain it well, I'm sure I will understand it.  So far, all you have done is cried ACCESS; the objection here is not the label coding, it's the layout and design.  No one wants another version of Infobox sportsperson on the NFL player pages.  This template has existed in more or less the same format for six and a half years, and today its accessibility is so urgent an issue that we cannot discuss what it's going to look like?  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:02, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Now you're trying to put words into my mouth. That's not going to work. Had you read my first post in this section, you would have found the link which you're now requesting. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:34, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

To repeat myself: Since all data is retained, the infobox style is retained, I am 100% in favor of switching to a more standardised code. -- Magioladitis (talk) 17:56, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * And apparently "more standardized code" is an achievable goal, Magioladitis. What is being discussed is the appearance, not the parameter labels.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:05, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You have insisted on having the template reverted from a version with "more standardized code", back to one with less standard, poorer, less technically sound, less semantically meaningful and less accessible code. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:26, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Andy, no one is objecting to the simplified parameter label coding. No one.  As Alakzi has already demonstrated, such parameter labels can be used in a template that does not look like Infobox person or Infobox sportsperson graphically.  I quite reasonably asked that the changes to the graphics, layout and design be discussed before the revised template goes live.  There is no urgent need to change this today, tomorrow or next week.
 * Assuming the simplified parameter label changes are implemented, please cite the specific provision of WP:ACCESS that you believe governs your preferred version of this template's layout and design. Please quote chapter and verse.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:52, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Of course you are objecting; you had it reverted. Otherwise, undo that revert, and we can continue to discuss stylistic issues, and the template will be more accessible. I have already addressed your repeated request in my other reply with this timestamp. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:34, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm assuming there are no objections to having this template use labels now if the similar formatting agreed upon at Template:Infobox college football player can be applied here too? I can't think of any reason to delay this.—Bagumba (talk) 08:00, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You won't hear me complain about labels. Alakzi (talk) 09:59, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I have no objections to using the simplified label coding, and I've said as much above.


 * As for importing the "formatting" (i.e. layout and design) of Infobox college football player, these two templates are not supposed to look alike. In fact, their graphics, layout and design were intended to be different in appearance to distinguish the two different classes of player.  You and I have specifically discussed this already.  As a temporary and intermediatecompromise step to implementing the infobox parameter labels suggested by Magioladitis and Alakzi, I would suggest the following:


 * (a) implement the parameter label coding, as already agreed by all concerned;
 * (b) preserve the existing color bars, section headers, and section groupings of displayed parameter data;
 * (c) preserve the existing internal text justification, on a section by section basis, as presently exists; and
 * (d) preserve the existing font size and dimensions of the template.


 * What I have suggested will permit the immediate implementation of the new parameter label coding, and preserve the status quo of colors, graphics, layout and design as possible (given the somewhat different constraints when using the infobox parameter labeling). This should satisfy the template editor's technical concerns, without prejudice to the organizational and aesthetic changes yet to be decided with the wider input of the WP:NFL members.  I think that's a reasonable temporary resolution.


 * Given the recent work done elsewhere on the CFB template, I think Alakzi already knows how to implement what I have suggested above, at his convenience. I do not presume to speak for Alakzi's volunteer time, however.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 10:19, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * What part of this is a compromise? Alakzi (talk) 10:29, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Good morning, Alakzi. The original issue raised above by Magioladitis had nothing to do with graphics, colors, and layout and design.  It was simply an issue of implementing the preferred infobox label coding.  As you and I have already discussed, however, I recognize that there will have to be some minor changes to accommodate the implementation of the infobox parameter label coding.  What I have suggested will preserve as much as reasonably possible of the existing layout and design, without prejudice to future decisions regarding layout and design which should be undertaken with the input of the wider WP:NFL membership.  Given the need to satisfy the technical concerns raised by Magioladitis, I think that is a reasonable temporary step.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 10:44, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. Please take a look. Alakzi (talk) 12:05, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that works as a temporary expedient. Thank you, sir, for your efforts.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:10, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Debut/final parameters
There is a discussion of the format and inclusion of there parameters at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Football_League.—Bagumba (talk) 23:45, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

American Football League draft
The AFL draft link doesn't work anymore, it links to 1966 AFL draft and should link to 1966 American Football League draft, ex. Karl Singer. Thanks. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 17:40, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Fixed, thanks. Alakzi (talk) 17:43, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Alakzi. WikiOriginal-9, if there are other link problems with present coding, please ping Alakzi.  I'll be around if I need to answer any background questions.  Thanks.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:55, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * FWIW, it doesnt look like the "AFL draft" link has been encoded correctly for the longest time.—Bagumba (talk) 17:58, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * And redirects should exist for shortened AFL anyways (if it isn't just the WP:COMMONNAME to begin with ... any other AFL drafts to disambiguate with?) —Bagumba (talk) 18:00, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Doh, there's Austalian.—Bagumba (talk) 18:03, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Edit conflict, was about to say that lol. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 18:04, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Was throw off because there is 1960 AFL Draft and 1960 AFL season. Not sure which others have AFL redirs already.—Bagumba (talk) 18:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I suppose all of these draft articles were moved from "Draft" to "draft" at some point for compliance with WP:TITLE but the redirects were not recreated. Alakzi (talk) 01:16, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Label for No.
Is there an elegant way to add a label for the "No." in the header?—Bagumba (talk) 18:59, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It's already labeled as "No." in the infobox as displayed. Nothing more needs to be added.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:10, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I was referring to the underlying HTML and making it accessible. My understanding is it looks for specific HTML tag(s), while the team and number I believe are currently just plain text.—Bagumba (talk) 19:16, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The whole point of the exercise above was to use semantic markup, which is accessible, machine-readable and easier to maintain. The jersey number, being part of the header, is not particularly accessible, machine-readable or easy to maintain. Alakzi (talk) 19:18, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope. Alakzi (talk) 19:18, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I've separated the number in the sandbox. Alakzi (talk) 19:56, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The test cases with a number but without a team look bad, having the number on its own without a header. Might be better to continue this at Template_talk:Infobox_college_football_player, where we were already doing related prototyping.—Bagumba (talk) 20:10, 27 March 2015 (UTC)