Template talk:Infobox NHS hospital

Wikilinks
I've wikified the infobox to save having to type ... whenever we use it. I've gone through the "What links here" list and removed the additional piping that my change created in the articles. Anything to make life a bit easier! Waggers 13:57, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Slight problem with that though is that piping no longer works in article. Luckily, this only affects the Locale field at the moment (see Moorfields Eye Hospital - the place should show "Islington", but instead lists "London Borough of Islington"). I see two possible options: 1) leave your changes as they are and do without piping in article 2) remove wikilinks from 1 or more of the infobox template fields. Road Wizard 14:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I see. That's strange as piping still works for the website fields.  Well, it seems a shame to not have the capacity to allow piping - but it also seems a shame to have to undo all the changes I just made!!  Perhaps we should wait and see what others think.  Arguably, though, shouldn't the Locale field for Moorfields be Islington (the place) as opposed to the borough anyway?  Linking to the actual locality would solve the problem... Waggers 14:36, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That's odd, I am sure I tried Islington first and when that returned a red link I opted for the borough. Maybe I just mis-typed Islington the first time. I will switch it in the Moorfields article. Road Wizard 14:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I have removed the links from the locale field again. The piping problem has recurred, and I can't see another way around it. The Royal Brompton Hospital is located in Brompton, but without piping this would display as Brompton, Kensington. I think we will find the same problem with other hospitals later on. Please let me know if you support or oppose this change as I will then know whether it is worth adding the links to the individual articles again. Thanks. Road Wizard 16:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm happy with the change - it's just a shame that it's necessary, and that the Wikipedia software can't cope with the piping. Since I caused this mess, I'll make the changes to the articles.  Sorry about the trouble I've caused! Waggers 20:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the wikilinks from the "opened" field as the infoboxes where the date is unknown look a little strange. Also, wikilinking the year does not add much benefit to the articles, so there isn't much harm in doing without. Road Wizard 14:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair play. (And we can still wikilink to the year "manually" if we really really need to!).  Waggers 15:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * showing my ignorance - what is piping? if it's all those straight & curly brackets what do they do as I just replaced them? &mdash; Rod talk 16:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I only learned what piping was a few weeks ago. Piping is the name used on Wikipedia for when you disguise a link. For example a normal link would be Broughton, Craven, but if I piped it, I could show the link as Broughton. The problem we have encountered with the infobox is that if we set it to automatically link a subject, the piping doesn't work so even if we wanted it to appear as Broughton, it would instead appear as Broughton, Craven. I am not sure how good my explanation was there, so if you are at all confused, let me know and I will try to find another way to explain it.
 * Getting to your second point about curly brackets, they are used to set changeable values in different articles. I will not explain any further at this stage as I am going to create some usage instructions later today, and I will answer any questions if you are still confused then. Thanks. Road Wizard 17:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, I have now added a usage note to the main page. Just copy and paste the code in the example box into an article and enter the details you know after the = sign. If you don't know some of the details, just delete that line and it will automatically choose the default value for you (the default is either blank or Unknown). If you need more detailed usage instructions, please let me know. Road Wizard 19:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Hospital types
Before we end up with a horde of hospital types, many of which may be synonymous, should we agree a definitive list (or at least, standard wording)? It may be pedantic, but we don't want to end up with some articles saying "District General Hospital", others saying "General Hospital", etc. It's probably easier to get such details ironed out now rather than having to make bulk changes later. Waggers 15:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Good idea. I will start the list off with the ones I have been using so far. Types can then be added or removed as we go along. It might be a good idea to wikilink them where an article exists. Road Wizard 15:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) District general hospital
 * 2) Eye hospital
 * 3) Psychiatric hospital
 * Secure mental hospital? - A sub-type of psychiatric hospital for hospitals like Rampton Secure Hospital
 * 1) Teaching hospital
 * 2) Community hospital (added by Waggers 11:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC))
 * 3) Maternity hospital (Waggers 11:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC))
 * 4) Specialist (X) hospital (Do not use this option if the hospital is more commonly known for one of the other types).

This seems to cover most hospitals but there are always a few "specialist hospitals" which don't fit eg Royal National Hospital for Rheumatic Diseases or Nuffield Orthopaedic Hospital - Oxford which will not fit into the list above. &mdash; Rod talk 19:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have added an option for Specialist (X) hospital. I think this should be only used though if the hospital is primarily known for the specialism (e.g. a District general hospital with a specialist cancer unit would still be known as a District general hospital. If on the other hand, its main function is cancer treatment with some district general functions as well, it could be listed as a Specialist cancer hospital). Road Wizard 22:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Statistics
What statistics should we include in the infobox? Through all of the individual trust and hospital websites I have looked at, there are only a few that provide the same type of statistics, and even fewer that count them in the same way (e.g. some employment figures are given for the hospital and some are given for the trust). Is there a single source available somewhere that collates the figures in a coherent and uniform manner? If so, it would be best if we could adapt the box to suit that source. Road Wizard 19:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * There's plenty of info available by trust from the Health and Social Care Information Centre (HSCIC). In particluar, workforce data is available  here, by trust only, not by hospital.  (Note: you'll have to add the medical and non medical totals together to get the absolute total.) Waggers 11:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * When contributing to the collaboration of the week Aberdeen Maternity Hospital I added the info box but couldn't do figures for inpatient & outpatient as it just says 4-5000 births a year. Also couldn't find any numbers for staff. I also don't know about Scottish counties - any help appreciated. &mdash; Rod talk 16:13, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I see Waggers has already amended the article to include the county, so that point is fixed. As to the statistics, I am currently juggling with a few different ideas in my head. I will try to work out which ones are feasible, and ask for your opinions in the next few days. Road Wizard 19:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

several trusts 1 hospital
I've just done an article for Paulton Memorial Hospital & it's run by 2 trusts - which makes the info box messy - any ideas? &mdash; Rod talk 18:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * What is the relationship between the 2 trusts? The article doesn't mention the West Wiltshire PCT.
 * I never considered that there would be hospitals being operated by two or more different trusts when I created the template, so I'll need to think this over for a bit. Do you know if there are more hospitals like this, or could it be an isolated case? Thanks. Road Wizard 19:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have answered part of my own question. Glenfield Hospital is also run by 2 trusts; a PCT and a University hospitals trust. Road Wizard 19:37, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Paulton Memorial Hospital has inpatient & clinics run by Bath & N.E. Somerset PCT & Maternity services from West Wilts PCT - I' ve amended the article to reflect this, but it may be more widespread as you suggest. &mdash; Rod talk 19:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know of any hospital in my area where there aren't services offered by more than one trust. But that's different from having more than one trust owning/running the hospital - there's nearly always one principal trust, with other trusts also running services there.  In the Paulton example, the PCT owns and administers the hospital, while the acute trust runs a maternity unit there - so the trust in the infobox should be the PCT.  Similar examples that I've worked on include:
 * Moorgreen Hospital (owned/operated by Southampton City PCT, with additional services provided by Hampshire Partnership Trust & Southampton University Hospitals Trust)
 * Southampton General Hospital (owned/operated by Southampton University Hospitals Trust but with additional services provided by a range of other bodies, including both of the above, plus the National Blood Service, and others)
 * Hope this helps, Waggers 14:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

OK I've changed the info box to show B&NES PCT, but it appears you did it simulataneously Thanks &mdash; Rod talk 14:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Great minds... :) Waggers 14:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

A&E present?
Should A&E not be changed to ED, to reflect the newer name? -- JD [ don't talk|email ] 10:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I have never heard of ED before. How widely is it used in the NHS? Road Wizard 13:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Official titles have changed over the years - I was a charge nurse when A&E was the preffered term to stop casual attenders at casualty - it didn't work. ED is the US term, being introduced on signs in the NHS, although it will take some time before it gets common usage in the UK (depsite all the US tv series). &mdash; Rod talk 14:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep. Most A&E departments are now signed as "Emergency department" rather than "Accident and Emergency" but the abbreviation A&E is still used far more than ED.  I think the reason for the introduction of ED instead of A&E is to distinguish between walk-in centres and minor injury units (which deal with "accidents") and traditional "casualty" departments, which are really for emergencies only. Waggers 20:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Merge proposal - preliminary
May I suggest that this template be merged into Template:Infobox Hospital (see Template talk:Infobox Hospital for the additional or alternative coding parameters it would need). There are already some UK NHS hospital under that category, and it would be more useful to have just the one hospital template to cover all the likely countries that English speaking editors are likely to add (US, Canada, Ireland, UK, NZ, Australia, South Africa, Caribbean etc). Now I think there are some good additional parameters in this template that need to be preserved (NHS trust etc), and Template:Infobox Hospital is clearly missing an important parameter, namely country.

I appreciate that Template:Infobox Hospital needs some work with conditional parameters before we go any further, but for now can I ask what the outpatient parameter in this template is supposed to be for ? Yes I know what outpatients is, but does this indicate number of consultations, number of distinct patients (who may attend multiple times in a year), does it actually mean anything to the average reader and do any articles actually make use of the parameter ? Likewise is the number of employees that useful to know in an encyclopaedia? Merging of the templates would be easier if we agree that these two parameters are not essential.David Ruben Talk 01:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what the figure is supposed to be used for Outpatients, but in any case activity data is generally very hard to come by. I'd argue that number of employees is a property of an NHS trust, not a hospital.  Therefore I'm quite happy to see both parameters removed from this template. Waggers 13:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Last call for comment
I've had a couple of suggestions and amended and renamed a couple of the parameters in the proposed upgrade to Template:Infobox Hospital. I would appreciate comment on choice of parameter names, e.g. 'HealthCare' vs. Funding, alternatives to 'Standards' (applies to developing countries with external accreditation certification), 'Region' vs Area (for the current County. but this does not apply outside of UK & US). In the next day or so, I shall implement the changes (see this demonstration) and redirect this UK-centric template across to the generic template... :-) David Ruben Talk 03:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok the part filled Template:Infobox Hospital with some guidence notes to copy & paste over to articles currently using this template is:

Please have a read of Template:Infobox Hospital/doc for full explnation of the parameters, and see this example - feel free to ask me any questions. David Ruben Talk 05:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Affiliation parameter - to what should it apply ?
I know you did several calls for comment & I didn't but I've just noticed the affiliated link says "Afilliated med schools" but several seem to link to schools of nursing & allied health - is there any way we can take Med. out of the link?&mdash; Rod talk 16:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course it can be, I'm not entirely sure it should be - the parameter seems to have been generally used for medical school links only until now, but yes hospitals & healthcare run as much on trained doctors as trained nurses - Hmmmm... If you don't mind I've copied this over to Template talk:Infobox Hospital to see what other opinions are generated :-) David Ruben Talk 02:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Template depreciated
All articles that previously used this template have now been upgraded to the expanded generic Template:Infobox Hospital, to which this template now redirects. David Ruben Talk 02:26, 4 December 2006 (UTC)