Template talk:Infobox body of water/Archive 1

Elevation below sea level
This template does not work for lakes whose surface is below sea level. It automatically adds the words "above Sea Level" to all elevations.Derek Balsam 17:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Merge
See -- User:Docu
 * Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Lakes and
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Lakes

Need to merge
There's a lake template that has been used for some time at Infobox Lake. TheGrappler 04:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * See the WP:LAKES talk page :D Em3rald 15:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It's at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Lakes and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Lakes -- User:Docu


 * Merge was completed. User:Docu

Manual of Style: Units of measurement
I was reading the Dead Sea's peer review when I stumbled upon the manual of style for units and measurements which states:

Wikipedia articles are intended for people anywhere in the world. Try to make articles simple to read and translate.
 * Conversions should generally be included and not be removed.
 * If editors cannot agree about the sequence of units, put the source value first and the converted value second.
 * Spell out source units in text.
 * If for some reason the choice of units is arbitrary, choose SI units as the main unit, with other units in parentheses. Mostly U.S.-centric subjects will have a reason to use non-SI units with SI units in parentheses.
 * Use digits and unit symbols for values in parentheses and for measurements in tables. For example, "a pipe 100 millimetres (4 in) in diameter and 16 kilometres (10 mi) long" or "a pipe 4 inches (100 mm) in diameter and 10 miles (16 km) long".
 * Converted values should use a similar level of precision as the source value. For example, "the Moon is 380,000 kilometres (240,000 mi) from Earth", not "(236,121 mi)".
 * Use standard abbreviations when using symbols. For example, metre is m, kilogram is kg, inch is in (not " or &Prime;), foot is ft (not ' or &prime;).
 * Do not append an s for plurals of unit abbreviations. For example, kg, in, yd, lb not kgs, ins, yds, lbs.
 * Some non-metric units have more than one version. Be specific. For example, U.S. gallon or imperial gallon rather than just gallon. Similarly, use nautical mile or statute mile rather than just mile in aviation, space, sea and in some other contexts.
 * Put a space between the value and the unit symbol, for example "25 kg" not "25kg". Preferably, use  for the space  so that it does not break lines.

This means we need to update the infoboxes (and the instructions here) to include both SI and non-SI units. --Lethargy 00:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * See the Template:Convert for a nice way to do the conversions. --Berland 20:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Self-reference
The note about shore length is a self-reference and should not say "this article". --Schzmo 13:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

lake_name
The description currently notes "name_of_lake, country", personally I think the name is sufficient and I'd like to amend the description to drop the country. Possibly the country could be a different fields (Note: there is already a field for the basin countries). -- User:Docu
 * I kind of like having the country (or U.S. state) after the lake's name, considering how many lakes there are that share the same name. --Lethargy 22:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The other infobox has a field "Location" which could take care of that. I suggested to include that Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Lakes. -- User:Docu

hCard microformat (and coord)
I've added some HTML classes, to cause an hCard microformat to be included in the generated mark-up. See also WP:UF. I also suggested the use of coord to add a Geo microformat. Andy Mabbett 10:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The latter was removed, with the edit summary "later maybe", which does not explain the removal; so I've restored it. Andy Mabbett 23:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * And removed again, with no explanation. Why? Andy Mabbett 11:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Please see the edit summary. In any case, if you are interested in WikiProject Lakes in one way or the other, obviously you are still free to add an infobox with coord. There are still quite a lot of lakes in the UK that are missing infoboxes. -- User:Docu


 * Which one - "later maybe" or "Restore standard coor at dm version"? Neither is meaningful explanation. If you are unable or unwilling to provide one, please undo your edit. Andy Mabbett 10:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * coor at dm is the standard template for coordinates.
 * Just wondering, for which lake are you trying to contribute an infobox? Maybe someone can give you a hand. -- User:Docu


 * There is no single standard. Your question appears to be a red herring. Andy Mabbett 11:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If questions about the use of the infobox are red herrings to you, just forget about it. -- User:Docu


 * Questions about the use of the infobox are not red herrings; questions about my hypothetical use of them on an unnamed article are. Perhaps you could instead try to articulate your concerns about the use of coord, or reinstate it? Andy Mabbett 11:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This is not the place to discuss problems of the coord proposal of yours. -- User:Docu


 * It's not merely "a proposal". This is the place to discuss its use in this template, and any concerns you may have about that; and I note that you've similarly failed to articulate your concerns elsewhere. Why is that? Andy Mabbett 12:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * coord is still a proposal for a template that may be used in Wikipedia, so there isn't much a point in including it here when we use the version that has already been adopted.
 * If your use of the infobox is hypothetical, why discuss it further? -- User:Docu


 * "If your use of the infobox is hypothetical" - Another red herring, Why not address the issue at hand? coord is not merely "a proposal"; it is widely used. Andy Mabbett 12:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Just wondering, where are you using it? -- User:Docu


 * That's irrelevant to the issue at hand, which you still seem reluctant to address. Why is that? Andy Mabbett 12:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * coord is used on in excess of 5000 articles, evidence that it is very much more than a proposal. (I got bored clicking through after ten pages of 500 links.)  Coord improves on coor d[ms] in a number of ways. I'm at a loss to understand why coord would be replaced by coor. The "coord is a proposal" argument is either misinformed or bogus. --Tagishsimon (talk)


 * Over 21,000, I'm told. Andy Mabbett 11:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

This discussion prompted me to ask some questions at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). -- Patleahy 07:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Description of variables
Template:Infobox lake/doc This section has been moved to the documentation subpage.

Updates
If you have anything else to add, please be welcome to do so, but please leave a comment here. This article could be applied to any other body of water. However, before applying it to very large bodies such as oceans, consider generating a template specifically for those types of waters that would cater to the highly specific nature of those bodies. Em3rald 06:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Please place your questions and comments below
I have 2 questions.
 * 1) For U.S. lakes, shouldn't we be using United States customary units followed by metric units in parenthesis? Many (most?) Americans aren't able to use the metric system without using a calculator to translate --myself included. My suggestion is that we do this for U.S. lakes, and the opposite for other lakes (e.g. xx km (xx mi) for a canadian lake, xx mi (xx km) for a U.S. lake).
 * 2) Is there something wrong with the infobox that causes edit links in Utah Lake to appear on the wrong lines?
 * Nevermind, it was the photo I had added to the page that broke it. Can someone who knows how to add the photo the right way do it? --Lethargy 23:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

New fields/variables for infobox
A field for a short description when the lake freezes may be worth adding, e.g. "frozen= December-March" or "frozen=1901, 1910, 1950". -- User:Docu

I think another good field to have would be water clarity. I know the Minnesota DNR gives clarity depths for all the lakes it has listed, I'm sure that information is available for other states and countries as well. --Greyduk 21:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Acre-feet conversion
I have created a template AcreFeetToM3 that can be used to convert acre-feet to cubic meters for lake and reservoir articles. If this template needs improvement, let me know. &#9679;DanMS • Talk 17:43, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Have you had a look at Template:convert? Maybe you could add the functionality to that template instead. --Berland 19:53, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Width of map
We really need a function allowing for enlarging or reducing the width of a map, as with any other infobox. Badagnani 04:59, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

It would be great if this could be addressed. Badagnani (talk) 09:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Dam Information
Since many lakes are in fact reservoirs formed by dams, would it make sense to add information about the dam such as:
 * owner
 * dam height
 * dam length
 * dam type

For lake size, flood control projects frequently have information provided such as:
 * minimum pool size
 * maximum pool size
 * summer pool size
 * winter pool size
 * flood control pool size

Can we add these to the template? Brian Powell (talk) 23:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok for me, I would use "operator" instead of "owner" though.-- User:Docu

Co-ordinates
I have been bold and re-instated the simple method of added co-ordinates, following the method of adding co-ordinates as in templates such as Template:Infobox UK station. This method of adding the co-ordinates is far simpler than the complex method currently provided. --Stewart (talk)  21:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The current version (coords=) is the same version the airport infobox uses. The main way coordinates are entered in wikipedia can be used with that.
 * As only one infobox lake used the version you suggest (the one where you removed the ones I had added), I think it's preferable to keep the current version and not introduce complications to the infobox.
 * BTW WP:BOLD has a separate section for non-article_namespaces. -- User:Docu


 * I did not think I had added complications to the infobox, however as I mainly work in an area that uses this different method of adding co-ordinates into the infobox, I felt it was helping. Never mind however as I doubt I will have much input in this area. --Stewart (talk)  11:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Location map?
Any opinions on adding a location map? In many cases, this would be helpful to show where the lake is located within eg. a country, such as in this example. It's already done with other geographical features such as cities, so it's probably possible to borrow the necessary code from there without having to reinvent too many wheels. --Latebird (talk) 10:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The infobox already has an image and a map. An additional one would make it too long IMHO. Besides, in the way the coordinates are defined, it can't be generated directly. BTW clicking on the globe brings up a location map. -- User:Docu


 * You said "the infobox already has an image and a map"- where is the map in this infobox? Bogomolov.PL (talk) 04:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It's "image_bathymetry = ". -- User:Docu


 * "image_bathymetry
 * bathymetry_image.png (or other image, avoid maps showing only the location of the lake)" - it is from template main page.
 * So my question again: where is the location map in this infobox? Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I guess it's time to switch to the new Geobox then. This thing here seems to have outlived its purpose. --Latebird (talk) 07:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Do we need a new (lake) version of geobox instead of infobox:lake? Or just add a geobox to every page? Bogomolov.PL (talk) 08:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Geobox can replace pretty much all other infoboxes for geographical entities. I've tried it with Üüreg Nuur, and it works pretty well. I don't think it has been tested much with lakes yet, so there are no specific blank or samples available at the moment, but that should be easy enough to fix. --Latebird (talk) 22:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Personally, I prefer the specific infobox, it makes it much easier to maintain the entire set (at least, in the way I did it for now). Possibly you have experience in doing it with the Geobox for other fields? BTW, please use the sandbox to do tests. -- User:Docu
 * That was not the type of test which would require a sandbox, as I knew from the start that it would technically work (other than the garbled version you "reverted" to). It is understandable that you would prefer a template you primarily maintain yourself. But I'm sure you realize that the general trend moves towards standardization. The earlier you get on board, the more valuable input you can give. --Latebird (talk) 07:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It removes the article from a set of articles which are consistently formatted, just for your personal test. How is your experience with maintaining the geoboxes? Which articles did you cover? What type of problems do you encounter? -- User:Docu


 * The Infobox Mongolian Province (one of the first templates I created years ago) was recently replaced by the Geobox, and I am very happy with the result. The nice thing is that when you switch between editing cities, provinces, mountains, rivers, or lakes etc., you don't need to learn how the infoboxes work all over again each time. That's consistency on a much larger scale, both in visual appearance and in functionality. Regrettably, it seems like the WikiProject lakes is among the last ones to participate and benefit. I'm not a lakes expert so it's not up to me to tell which specialized fields might still be missing, but I'm sure the maintainers would be more than happy to help out should there be any. --Latebird (talk) 21:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It appears that some of the more active projects don't use the geobox. I just had a look at Infobox Mongolian Provinces. The overall quality was good, but it appears that there were a few inconsistencies, despite the fact there are only very few articles using it and they seem easy to fix. Did this new template help you fix the inconsistencies? Did you have any help from "the maintainers"?  -- User:Docu


 * What kind of inconsistencies are you talking about? The template switch was just a straightforward replacement, so no further help was necessary. --Latebird (talk) 07:22, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The columns AlternateName, PopulationYear, LicensePlate weren't complete/formatted the same way. The same goes for Flag, CoatOfArms, but for these it's normal as no image is available for them. -- User:Docu


 * The location map can be found be clicking on the globe. Bathymetry should be a map as well. -- User:Docu
 * Template:Location map is a special Wikipedia mechanism. Using of mapping systems out of Wikipedia ("globe clicking") does not fulfil its purposesBogomolov.PL (talk) 05:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * They are comparable though. Are there specific points you are missing? -- User:Docu
 * The location map image with a pushpin is visually an image inside an article body. Globe button it is a reference, not more. Every normal geographic template has location map - the geography description starts with an object positioning, isn't it? Bogomolov.PL (talk) 06:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you click on the globe? -- User:Docu


 * That's a nice UI gimmick, but:
 * Not an adequate replacement for a country specific locator map, which can be optimized in scale, graphical design, etc.
 * Not part of the article, and hence not available to downstream data users such as a printed encyclopedia.
 * There's a reason that pretty much every geography related infobox includes a locator map nowadays. The only arguments against it I've seen from you so far amount to little more than WP:IDONTLIKEIT. --Latebird (talk) 11:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Class nowraplinks
Please set class="nowraplinks" for Infobox lake. Issue is that when multiple WikiLinks are included in one of Infobox lake's fields (for instance specifying: a city, county, state for Location); longer WikiLinks end up line-wrapping which is "confusing" and visually unappealing. I had been manually putting in HTML br (break) tags between long WikiLinks when I know line-wrapping would likely occur, but often either a bot or a contributor comes along who fails to understand why they are there and removes them - Argh! LeheckaG (talk) 12:19, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. -- User:Docu


 * Thank You. LeheckaG (talk) 19:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Pymatuning Reservoir, Walker Lake (Pennsylvania) seem problematic, as the text no longer wraps. Personally, I'd remove the feature again, but I don't mind the wrapping in general. -- User:Docu


 * I would say that "normally" links should not be that long?
 * i.e. City/Township+County+State should be split up into separate links: ...|City/Township, County+State|County, State
 * LeheckaG (talk) 20:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * One could do that, but it just creates more, not necessarily important links. BTW the coordinates also start wrapping strangely: e.g. at Orlík Dam just after the globe. -- User:Docu


 * To get class="nowraplinks", to only apply to some fields (like Location) and not others (like Coordinates), one way would be to set it on a &lt;span class="nowraplinks"> ... &lt;/span> on the Location field and not on the entire Infobox as a whole. An alternative would be a template field like "align=" (personally, if something is implemented, then it must/should be included in the "all" documentation section), which would allow one to specify optional class parameter(s) like nowraplinks. So that an Infobox could be set nowraplinks or not depending on the best visual style for that one.
 * My original intent in the request is that contents of fields like Location be better structured with geographic sub-divisions not being split across lines, i.e. it "bothered" me when a subdivision name (individual city/township, county, or state and corresponding link) was split in the middle.
 * If there were a way to get them collectively to "soft" line break only at commas or hyphens (non-whitespace punctuation in general; i.e. some form of hyphenation/line-break behavior control, "soft" meaning only line break if needed at that point, otherwise continue on). Older (photo-)typesetting software allowed one to control such behavior, and a few modern word processing packages do as well.  LeheckaG (talk) 07:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The closest (current) Wikitext behavior might be to set  rather than either class/style="normal", "nowrap", or class="nowraplinks".  Either nowrap end and nowraplinks end close a span style.  Currently, nowrap begin and nowraplinks set , the latter only for HTML   elements/tags; and wrap effectively does a nowrap end and nowrap begin, i.e.   and  .  Currently, Wikitext and CSS2/CSS3 rely on web browsers' interpretation of Unicode.Org "standard" line wrapping behavior and provide limited additional control, other than using the white-space: span styles.  CSS3 also has "text-wrap:", but it does not provided a specific punctuation = line-break "hint" attribute. LeheckaG (talk) 09:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)