Template talk:Infobox fraternity

Merged?
For quite a few of the inactive fraternities, it would be appropriate to have a "Merged Into", especially if it was a clean addition like Phi Kappa into Phi Kappa Theta or Pi Lambda Sigma into Theta Phi Alpha. I'd suggest merged_into and merged_date so

merged_into=Theta Phi Alpha

merged_date=1952-8-1

would come up as

Merged     Theta Phi Alpha on September 1, 1952

or something similar (maybe don't combine the lines?) Naraht (talk) 14:17, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I think it would be much more useful to have a freeform "fate" field, as Infobox company does, which could be used to indicate a merger, denationalization (e.g. Delta Kappa), or dissolution among other fates.-- choster (talk) 21:06, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm good with fate, allow for Iota Alpha Pi to be described more cleanly.Naraht (talk) 16:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Any one object to fate?Naraht (talk) 22:10, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The Delta Kappa example is useful, to consider options. I have been working on a number of infobox updates; some would indeed have an obvious need for a "fate" param at times.  But for many, the three 'free' fields have worked well.  An example is the infobox for Lambda Omega.  I inset the secondary target (using free1) for a later merger, and by happenstance these fields all tend toward the bottom of the infobox.  By placing the date in parentheses it looks pretty clean.  In addition to a known merger partner I've used words like "scattered" after the label "Merged into?"  I've landed on what appears to be a solution for all these, then another twist appears.  The outcomes of all these groups are each a little dissimilar.  I've used these "merged with" free labels several dozen times, but look forward to hearing other ideas.


 * Sigma Mu Sigma is another wonky one, where the normal rules don't fit. Take a look to see how I handled it there, and let me know if you've an alternate idea.  Jax MN (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Restart
Yes, I see that there are a lot of possible fates. I still like having fate = ... but, to keep the flexibility, I think that it should go in the "natural" place, last, which is just before the free & free label entries (and after everything non-free).Naraht (talk) 22:45, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

OK. Let's flip this around, does anyone have a *problem* with Fate being added just before the free/free_labels. If no one comments by the end of February, I'll be Bold and add it. For complicated ones, we can either use Fate with the "Free"s or just leave as "Free"s.Naraht (talk) 20:09, 25 February 2022 (UTC)


 * I wish I could think of a short word between "fate" and "outcome" in its emotional weight. Fate certainly works, but it's got that "drumbeat of doom" vibe. Jax MN (talk) 20:27, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Agreed. And fate doesn't really seem the right emotion for the equal mergers of healthy-ish groups into a new name like
 * Omicron Nu and Kappa Omicron Phi into Kappa Omicron Nu
 * Phi Kappa and Theta Kappa Phi into Phi Kappa Theta
 * Outcome does seem more neutral, but I agree it doesn't quite fit either.Naraht (talk) 20:48, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Remove/Keep Mission and Vision?
has in the last 24 hours deleted either Mission or Vision or both from the infobox template of three Fraternities (Alpha Zeta (professional)‎, Sigma Xi, and Alpha Kappa Psi). IMO, there are really two choices, The *Essay* Avoid mission statements is probably useful. It is an essay and as such not official, but it does represent a fairly well organized set of arguments. I'd like to keep the discussion here, but will mention it over at the Wikiproject, just in case someone there *doesn't* have the template in their watchlist. (I'm not intending to indicate that Mean as custard has done wrong, but merely that I'm fine with jumping to Discuss rather than throwing in the Revert step. :) ) Naraht (talk) 15:13, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Revert the changes and keep Mission and Vision in the templates
 * 2) Remove Mission and Vision as parameters.
 * Mission and vision statements are only valid if they are sufficiently unusual and encapsulate the organisation's function and aims in a way that cannot be better explained in any other form, or if they have been the subject of considerable third-party comment and so become notable in themselves. Virtually all of the time they are merely puffery and removing them improves the article. . . Mean as custard (talk) 15:57, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I strongly support removing these parameters. It may sometimes be appropriate in the prose of an article but this information has no place in an infobox, a table that is intended to present readers with a concise, high-level overview of the subject of an article. ElKevbo (talk) 21:27, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I sympathize somewhat. Dumb, wordy or ponderous mission or vision statements don't add much value for me, here nor in corporate management.  Yet to label them such, these are all subjective opinions, except that one might quantify a number of words beyond which a statement ought to be considered 'wordy'. Sometimes groups appear to get excitable about formation steps, and go overboard, manufacturing a Mission, Vision statement, Pillars, Motto, yada-yada just because others have them.  Perhaps it is easier to do this versus the hard work of recruitment and team-building.
 * Clearly, some mission and vision statements ARE instructive, pithy, and of significant importance to defining the nature of a group. Where then do we draw the line? Just having these parameters available will prompt many groups to fill them, sometimes extending an infobox for fifteen or twenty lines of text.  To deny some is to allow a subjective judgement.
 * Maybe we set a Project standard to allow one such statement: Pick it, whether motto, pillars, mission statement or vision statement. Interested readers can always follow the link trail back to the GLO's own website, to read the detail. Jax MN (talk) 16:49, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Motto (and pillars) seems to fall into a different category to me from Mission/Vision Statements, whether or not they should. A 150 year old fraternity/sorority likely will have created a motto *at* the time of founding or soon after and changing that motto might require votes of multiple conventions due to a meaning explained in the ritual. A Mission Statement is likely to be something created by an employee of the National Office and simply need approval by the National Board.Naraht (talk) 17:07, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a great discussion. I agree motto/pillars are different and do belong in the infobox, while mission statement should go. For one thing, the motto is usually short and can reasonably fit into an infobox slot, while a mission statement can take up an inch or more of vertical space. Some mission statements are several sentences or a short paragraph. They are just too long for the infobox. Another difference: mottos are often found in a secondary source such as Baird's, while mission statements almost exclusively come from the group's website or other publication. When included in the article, the mission statement rarely had a sourcee. We could remove them on that basis, without even getting into their generic/puffery nature. Rublamb (talk) 22:12, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * If the Mission/Vision Statements are the topic of news, then they belong in prose.Naraht (talk) 17:07, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, on including these when they are a topic of news. I also agree with ElKevbo on the matter of making infoboxes tight and summarial. This leads back to it being a subjective matter, resistive of making a hard-and-fast policy.  Some years ago I had an exchange with MeanAsCustard, where I pushed back on what I thought was too-aggressive removal of text from GLO articles.  I don't want to wholesale delete *all* these mission and vision statements (etc.), but I am sympathetic to the removal of unnecessary, non-encyclopedic text. This is a useful discussion, as we mull this over. Jax MN (talk) 18:29, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I would have no problem with doing this in a manner that would allow you to see all of the deleted fields and determining which ones would make sense to add as prose. Naraht (talk) 16:03, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I understand a rule saying that Mission/Vision statements have to come from third party sources, but frankly that would almost always be equivalent to "if a third party has a reason to repeat it, it probably belongs in the text with the reason that they did so"

Restatement
This is *only* a proposal to remove the vision and mission fields. *No* change to motto or pillar fields.Naraht (talk) 16:03, 11 April 2023 (UTC)


 * At this point, there are not many with a mission statement and very few with a vision statement. I have looked at all of them. I don't think there is any added value to this content being in the infobox. My vote is to remove this content from the Infobox fraternity. Rublamb (talk) 22:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, we now have a way to easily check the values in the fields we are deleting. Are we all agreed those fields should go?Naraht (talk) 01:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Not properly handling status
- Adelphian Society has had a Status added that isn't Active, but still shows up in the website missing cat.Naraht (talk) 15:06, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * . Primefac (talk) 15:11, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Re: the status param, I do not see it expressed among the other parameters of the template found on the Template:Infobox fraternity article, which is the template I'd always used when writing GLO articles. Is this an omission?  I've not spent much time looking into the metastructure of where template markup language is derived.  Jax MN (talk) 17:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll be honest, I never update /doc pages, usually because I'm doing a flyby TPER request and don't know how folks want to display the param. This time I just sort of forgot, mainly because of that habit. Primefac (talk) 11:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Handling suffixes.
For both the status and the affiliation, right now the infobox does something based on the value of the field. For status it determines whether it goes into the category indicating a need for websites, for Affiliation, whether the value should be wikilinked. However in both places, for quite valid reasons, it makes sense to have a suffix, either a date of merger/going defunct and for Affiliation, the addition of the word former. Can these be changed so that the action only evaluates the first part of the string (string of alphas (UC or lc)) to do this. So for example, since "affiliation = NIC" generates " Affiliation    NIC " that it could also have "affiliation = NIC (former)" generate " Affiliation     NIC former "? (and status = Defunct *and* status = Defunct (1876) both cause it to not look for a website?) Naraht (talk) 14:21, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I would rather have multiple parameters with individual values than have to split out one parameter to do multiple things. If we want to indicate when a GLO went defunct, then we should have a parameter for that. If we want previous affiliations in addition to current affiliations, we should have a separate parameter for that. Primefac (talk) 15:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * OK based on this, it sounds like the following should be added.
 * former_affiliation
 * former_affiliation2
 * merge_date
 * merge_target (what it merged into, better term?)
 * defunct_date

Naraht (talk) 01:44, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Level or Environment Parameter???
I'm looking at all of the entries in type and was thinking of a separate parameter indicating where members could be taken from, but I'm not quite sure what would be the best name. there could be multiple here, Alpha Phi Omega for example, allows both Undergraduate and Graduate students. Naraht (talk) 09:57, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * High School
 * Undergraduate
 * Graduate
 * Community
 * Is this a useful thing to have in the infobox? Genuinely curious, but it seems like an exception rather than a rule that a GLO would take folks other than uni students (and for the record, I don't necessarily think the UG/Graduate distinction to be particularly useful). Primefac (talk) 15:15, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There are at least 16 groups (not counting redirects) using this that are for High School students (and in some cases two year colleges) in Category:High school honor societies and at least the same number of Graduate only (between Law School and Medical School fraternities (exclusing pre-med and pre-law)).Naraht (talk) 18:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * member_pool could be a name, or maybe open_to. Primefac (talk) 11:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Good catch. I don't know if we need a new parameter or to develop guidelines within our current structure. For example, using a combination of Type and Emphasis to convey this info. Maybe the Beta Club would be Type: Honor Emphasis: High School, for example. A collegiate/community-based group could either be Type: Social Emphasis: Community and collegiate OR Type: Community and collegiate Emphasis: Social.


 * I have been using the lifetime field for high school and non-collegiate groups as a workaround for the automatic insertion of the word "collegiate" in the Members field. It became an issue when I started working on high school honor groups. Then, I noticed it was also a problem with groups that initiate members into both collegiate and community-based chapters. I am not as worried about graduate schools as those are technically still collegiate members. Would a solution be to replace the word "collegiate" with "active" in the Membership field? I realize that is not a perfect solution as some groups consider their alumni members to be active.
 * " Rublamb (talk) 22:26, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Added Former_Affiliation to template
I added Former Affiliation and Former_Affiliation2. These have the same choices as Affiliation and Affiliation2 plus AES (Association of Education Sororities), PPA (Professional Panhellenic Association) and PIC (Professional Interfraternity Conference). With that, I'm not sure what other umbrella organizations should be added to the possible Former Affiliation.Naraht (talk) 06:39, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Adding "Former Affiliation", etc, as a parameter is a really helpful addition. Thanks for handling it.


 * Naraht, would you add links to AES, PPA and PIC when these show up? For example, looking at Omega Upsilon Phi, PIC shows as its former affiliation, but casual readers won't know what that abbreviation stands for, nor would they be easily able to find its history. Jax MN (talk) 19:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Also, this may need to be addressed: See Delta Sigma Epsilon (sorority) for usage of "AES" and how it renders. Is this just a typo, where a slash was substituted for a pipe?  Jax MN (talk) 19:39, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for finding both of these issues! the PIC one is because while I changed it to PIC, I didn't make it a former_affiliation. PIC will only link when it is a former. PIC hasn't existed since the merger in 1977 with the PPA. As for AES, yes, that was a typo in the template, now fixed.Naraht (talk) 21:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Future of both infobox and filling in values.
Yes, that is a grand title. :) Current thoughts Existing Fields.
 * 1) ) affiliation - Every group should have an affiliation. If it hasn't been part of any we recognize, it gets independent. Note this will include all of the Filipino groups, for which there is nothing to affiliate to.
 * 2) ) former_affiliation. If a group is/was part of the PFA and was part of either PPA or PIC prior to the merger, then PPA & PIC count as former_affiliations.
 * 3) ) status - 3 or 4 valid values depending on how we count Unknown. Active, Merged & Defunct. See below for ideas.
 * 4) ) Affiliation comment. the comment with the list on a lot of affiliation2 giving the list of choices, I figure we can trim out of the articles, while leaving in the version at the template.

New Fields
 * 1) ) defunct_date
 * 2) ) merge_date
 * 3) ) merge_target. (only needed if this group is going away. Could be a merge into (Phi Alpha -> Phi Sigma Delta) or a merge of equals (Phi Kappa and Theta Kappa Phi -> Phi Kappa Theta) . This field can handle both "legal" merges like the two before *or* a case where Defunct Date is set and the field is something like Alpha Tau Omega and scattered.

Other unrelated... Naraht (talk) 20:48, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) )"member_pool= could be a name, or maybe open_to=" Any ideas on this (this could be like Graduate Students, but trying to figure out how this and emphasis relate, in a case like "Only takes Law Students."


 * Mulling this over, several degrees of merger are used. There standard mergers, like Theta Chi and Beta Kappa.  There are mergers of relative equals, along with those where the merged partner is clearly junior.  There are situations of very small nationals that are absorbed.  There are pick-offs, where one or more chapters join (or are released to join) another national, not the focus of a main merger.  There are also scattered defections.  All this in mind, I like the neutral-sounding term "Successor" as opposed to "Merged with" or some variant.  Jax MN (talk) 21:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Its looks good. I like Successor because sometimes the merger results in a new name. Rublamb (talk) 22:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll add defunct_date, merge_date and successor, I don't think anyone has spoken on it. And they would go immediately after status.
 * Possible code behind this to be added:
 * defunct_date should only show if status = Defunct (error to maint cat?)
 * Merge_date should only show if status = Merged. (error to maint cat?)
 * Successor only shows if merge_date???
 * Naraht (talk) 18:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)


 * That added code makes sense. Rublamb (talk) 18:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not totally sure I know how to do these, worst case, I'll just add them without the limitations and ask . :)Naraht (talk) 19:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It is not the end of the world if this doesn't happen. Rublamb (talk) 19:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Added. Use https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=0&ns0=1&ns1=1&ns2=1&ns3=1&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns6=1&ns7=1&ns8=1&ns9=1&ns10=1&ns11=1&ns12=1&ns13=1&ns14=1&ns15=1&ns100=1&ns101=1&ns118=1&ns119=1&ns710=1&ns711=1&ns828=1&ns829=1&search=insource%3A%2Fstatus+%2A%3D+%2AMerged%2F+fraternity+-insource%3A%2Fmerge_date%2F to get a list of the Merged groups without a merge date. Also, in my head at least, if a date (MDY) can be found for the merger go ahead and include it.Naraht (talk) 21:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What about transitory mergers? Naraht recently updated Pi Delta Theta to show its successor group of Delta Sigma Epsilon.  The infobox now helpfully reflects that merger target using the new parameters.  HOWEVER, that recipient sorority went on to merge into Delta Zeta fifteen years later.  Ought we include a secondary merger partner in the original infobox, or leave this as a two-step investigation process for readers looking into the matter?  I don't have a strong preference, balancing between clarity demands on both sides. Jax MN (talk) 16:21, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. The later merger would be shown in the next group's infobox Rublamb (talk) 17:45, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I gave that thought as I deleted that information. It isn't the only A -> B ->C, but a good chunk of the others are ultimately either into ZBT or AEPi. I'd only want a second successor if the two groups actively/officially split the merging group. We don't have to include everything in the Infobox, and if the user wants to follow what ultimately happened, it is in the text as well as on the Delta Sigma Epsilon Page.
 * OK. That's reasonable. Jax MN (talk) 19:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Merged groups are done. In general, I used the dts template if there are exact dates of mergers, but bare year if that is all we currently have that will sort of help sort things out, but I'll want to look at things again when the monthly param report drops. (The count for status = merge and merge_date = something should match). One lesson appears to be that we may not want to restrict successor to only merge groups, it looks like there may be cases where a group went defunct and another sorority picked up those chapters sort "from the floor" in a way where calling it a merge doesn't make sense.Naraht (talk) 16:43, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Single Chapter
If a local fraternity has a wikipedia page and it joins a national fraternity, is the successor "Mu Mu Mu" or "Kappa chapter of Mu Mu Mu"?Naraht (talk) 01:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it would be "Mu Mu Mu". Body text and/or an EFN would carry the information about Kappa chapter, and whether it became a new chapter or merged or revived a pre-existing one. Jax MN (talk) 09:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I may not be specifying the example situation well enough, but I'm not sure. At University of California, Berkeley Omega Omega was founded at in 1862 making it the oldest Greek Letter Organization on the Pacific Coast and as such there is an Omega Omega page. It stayed active until 1979 when it became Kappa chapter of Mu Mu Mu. In the infobox of Omega Omega, which has a merge_date of 1979, is the successor parameter value "Mu Mu Mu" or "Kappa chapter of Mu Mu Mu". (Sorry if I'm repeating myself)Naraht (talk) 12:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I had similar situations come up when constructing pages to list all the GLOs at a school. A one-for-one merger of a chapter from ABC to DEF fraternity simply shows the new Greek letters - we have consensus on this.  Fair enough.  But there were times where I'd used "(see DEF)" to call out the step-up to a new, or later organization where there was a series of name changes.  The "(see DEF)" name being the final destination after a series of mergers.
 * Again, I think that it is sufficient to note the resulting chapter name in an EFN or REF body text, and have moved away from declaring the resulting chapter name in the notes field (or in the infobox, per your question). Jax MN (talk) 16:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Defunct Date
Looking at Alpha Mu Sigma. National Organization disbanded in 1963, Alpha chapter continued until 1971, which is the defunct_date and does it matter if it is another chapter other than Alpha? Naraht (talk) 17:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. The date of demise should reflect the last survivor under that name. Jax MN (talk) 17:52, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * OK, so combining this and some of the other statements, are we agreed on....
 * Mu Mu Mu is founded a school A in 1920
 * Mu Mu Mu expands to schools, B, C, D & E by 1930.
 * chapters A, B, & D go inactive in 1940
 * chapters C& E meet at convention to officially dissolve the National Organization in 1950
 * chapter at E goes inactive in 1955
 * chapter at C stops admitting undergradute members in 1960
 * Alumni organization of C decide to create community chapters in the 1960s
 * last of the community chapters that can create new brothers goes inactive by 1970
 * alumni of C and nearby community chapter continue to have meetings as an organization to sponsor fun run for cancer until 1980.
 * When would they be considered defunct and what would the defunct date be? (and yes I've run into just about everypieces of this while doing the merged and defunct chapters)Naraht (talk) 18:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I feel your pain. Since we include community / non-colegiate groups in the WP, moving from collegiate to community-based would not mean defunct. Defunct is either when the national closes, meaning all chapters close or any remaining chapters become independent local groups OR when it stops admitting new members. The latter seems to fit many honorary groups. I don't consider a gradually shrinking alumni group as an "active" GLO for our purposes. Note that even though a local group might continue the legacy of the original national GLO chapter, it is still not the same fraternity/sorority if the national leadership voted to cease operations. That is why we have the "withdraw" status for the chapter list, meaing a chapter that does not follow the closure/merger directive of the national GLO.
 * The date would be either that date established by the national board's vote or that last year any mmbers were indiated, depending on what we can find in the sources. Rublamb (talk) 19:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I generally agree with what Rublamb just said. In your hypothetical, above, I'd suggest that the year/date of demise is "chapters C & E meet at convention to officially dissolve the National Organization in 1950".  The status params would then read "Withdrew (local)" with an EFN noting that the chapter continued under the same name with little or no cooperation with the other local chapter.  If alumnae chapters would continue to exist or be formed under a formal chartering process, then that date of demise would be pushed off, indefinitely. Body text or a separate table could track these.  The local undergrad or alumnae chapters would trigger a closure date independently.  And when the national body decides to cease awarding chapters, that would be the date of demise, as elaborated in body text. Jax MN (talk) 20:32, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Do we distinguish between alumni/graduate chapters and alumni organizations? I think these are not the same thing. The former often continue to add members, undertakee volunteer projects, hold regular meetings, and host social functions. The latter serve as holding corporations for undergraduate property (sometimes rented to other groups once the chapter closes), manage donations and scholarships, and might have an annual meeting to elect officers of the corperation. The difference being the social/service function and the continued addition of members, along with different IRS designations.
 * Not to get too deep in the weeds, but I remember a former high school fraternity that has closed all chapters, but still has the dregs of a national board, with hopes or organizing alumni reunions. Nothing has taken place for years, other than a website that was last updated maybe a decade ago. I would consider this defunct, despite five people being on the board. No one from the group has complained about my edits calling it inactive. Maybe that is the ultimate test? Rublamb (talk) 20:49, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think, in general, we're getting too picky/pedantic/choose-your-phrase about this sort of stuff. An infobox for a national fraternity (or one that claims to be) should have a defunct date for when they collectively decide to stop being a fraternity (the "C & E decide" in the hypothetical above). If (from immediately above) the high school fraternity closes all of its chapters, that's the defunct date, not when a handful of alumni decide that they still want to get together and drink beers. Anything after the defunct date can (and should) be dealt with in prose in the body of the article; an infobox should be a quick summary of the major points, not getting into the weeds of exactly when the last person decided they no longer wanted to be associated with the group. Primefac (talk) 19:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Quite happy with this, found a few that I was so split that I wrote the defunct_date as "19XX (formally dissolved 19WW)" where 19WW was earlier and change the defunct_date to 19WW.Naraht (talk) 23:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

SPURS
So given the above, should SPURS be status=Active, (status=Defunct, defunct_date=2005) or something else?Naraht (talk) 16:59, 12 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I say Defunct, 2005. Even the fate the 3 chapters that attempted to continue is sketchy. Rublamb (talk) 17:19, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
 * In the same spirit as immediately above.Naraht (talk) 23:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Last Five
There are five left that I'm not sure of either status, a defunct date within a decade or both... Please take a look.
 * Phi Lambda Kappa - More than a dozen chapters listed as active, but set as Defunct in the infobox?
 * Unknown: I believe it is defunct as it has not web presence, either at the colleges, social media, or the national. But I have not been able to prove it. Note that no one has complained about my listing it as defunct.


 * Delta Phi Delta - Really seems to have fizzled out with "dormant in the late 20th century, but two chapters (later one) continuing to act as local groups
 * Defunct: I heard from the faculty advisors of both local groups, who were not aware of the other. They said it has long been inactive. And, one chapter just changed its name this year.


 * Wine Psi Phi - Conflicting claims to name, Graduate chapter in Chicago vs. New group in Durham NC. Should it even count as Defunct?
 * Defunct: It officially closed at the national level decades ago. The two local groups that are fighting over the legal name are alumni reboots/dregs that are not collegiate and more of regular community organizations.


 * Scabbard and Blade - I can't find any reference to the National society closing its operation and it is listed as having a website, but that website doesn't really show connection to the chapters.
 * Defunct: The linked website is for a local chapter and should be moved to External Links. I found its closure somewhere; not like me to skip the source. I will backtrack.
 * Okay. Not a usable source but confirms the status. See this.
 * Given the dates in the reddit, I'm going with 2019 for a defunct_date with a


 * Chi Iota Pi - Unclear whether all of the chapters are gone, but given how difficult it has been to find anything and how most of the refs are primary on their old website, I'm tempted to put up for AFD
 * Unknown: I believe all chapters are inactive, as they are no longer listed as part of the university's Greek life. But it is still unknown. I cannot remember if I did a hunt through social media, so will double-check there.


 * Since I worked on these articles, I have responded above. Rublamb (talk) 17:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not sure if changing PhiLK or ChIP to Unknown would be better, and I'll added 2019 for S&B as a defunct_date.Naraht (talk) 22:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Additional Umbrella abbreviation:KSCV
As I see it, there are 11 members of the KSCV - Kösener Senioren-Convents-Verband that have wikipedia pages on enwiki (and another 5 or so on dewiki that aren't here). Not all use this template, but I guide to how much it can be used. that puts ahead of the FFC for example.Naraht (talk) 21:20, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Figuring out the newly found European umbrellas was on my short list of projects. Since I did not take German, I sometimes have to ask my husband to look at the weird translations and/or the dewiki verson--and the really long words kinda freak me out when proofreading (do I keep the German word or translate into English, etc.) So, I am very happy that you are addressing this! Are we getting to the point of a template? Rublamb (talk) 22:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * KSCV added. A few were changed to allow the template to link, several in the list at Kösener Senioren-Convents-Verband aren't using infobox fraternity and should. Also one links to SC and I moved that to affiliation2 to allow the autolink for KSCV.Naraht (talk) 02:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Additional Affiliations
For European groups, I think are possibilities to add as abbreviations.
 * Union of Catholic German Student Fraternities (Cartellverband)
 * Wingolf
 * Presidium Convent (P!K!)
 * League of Estonian Corporations EKL

Other current affiliations that aren't really umbrellas in the way that I think that we expect are bed the linked ones.
 * Chi Alpha - Assemblies of God USA
 * Yesharah Society - Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Affiliations mostly done, current status
The following entries are still in Category:Pages_using_infobox_fraternity_with_missing_affiliation Also, having "affiliation =" with no data and "former_affiliation = blah" counts has a missing affiliation. Surprised, something to keep an eye on.
 * 1) ) Blaues Kartell. It looks like things are a bit more complicated with the umbrellas in Germany. You have Weinheimer Senioren-Convent which has corps in it, but some of those corps are in Cartels like Blaues Kartell and Viererbund. So maybe like if the groups that joined the NPC from the AES had stayed unified under the AES?
 * 2) ) Commons club Not sure this can be touched until the article is split (into at least two if not three pieces)

Now for the verification, going *from* the umbrella groups to make sure that members/former members have the right affiliations. Naraht (talk) 16:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Birthplace
School only? there are some birthplaces that look like: Unless the school has two different campuses, but with only one wikipedia page, I think it should be trimmed down to the college only. (Yes, I know that there are some formed elsewhere, but this seems to cover about 90%.)Naraht (talk) 23:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * University of Central Missouri, Warrensburg, MO or New York University New York, New York.


 * I agree; get rid of the city when there is a college, university, or high school. The exception would be those groups that were formed at random locations within a city, with no official institutional connection. Then, it would be appropriate to include the city, state/province. It should be added to the infobox template instructions. Rublamb (talk) 20:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hit a few times. Either "abcd college (now efgh university)" or "efgh university (previously efgh college)" Allow for this? Iota Phi Theta and some of those founded at the previous groups to Colgate are good examples.Naraht (talk) 17:56, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, when it includes a specific location at a school like --- No. 12 Old South Hall, Yale University, New Haven, Connecticut. the city and state go away, but the No. 12 Old South Hall I'm not sure. I *think* it should go away...Naraht (talk) 18:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I don't mind the clarification for a school name change, especially if it was obscure. Old records will occasionally pop up, showing Duke with another name (Trinity College until 1924), so even there, it's reasonable to note the clarification on Wikipedia lists.  As to your second question, on specific building locations, where we have them it is reasonable to include this in body text in the history section, but not in the infobox. Jax MN (talk) 18:11, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, I like the Trinity College example. And if the school long since died with no wikipedia page, I'm leaving city and state. (Mu Phi Epsilon)Naraht (talk) 19:36, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * At this point, there is one infobox left with two links in the birthplace: Ohio State University College of Veterinary Medicine, which I can live with.Naraht (talk) 22:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Scope
For Scope, my current understanding.
 * 1) ) Scope is defined by *current* size. National and then all but one chapter gone inactive = Local; International and having the one chapter overseas go inactive = National
 * 2) ) National should be accompanied by unlinked country in Parentheses. So. National (United States) and National (Philippines)
 * 3) ) North America would be appropriate if the chapters are in the United States and Canada
 * 4) ) Applies to chapters, *not* Alumni Associations (roughly defined as whether they can take in new members) So Alpha Phi Alpha would be International, Alpha Kappa Rho would be National (Philippines).
 * 5) ) Regional is definitely more than one chapter, but regional/(inter)national line is currently not defined. (I don't know what we would do if a fraternity had 5 chapters in Michigan and 5 in Ontario.)
 * We sometimes have indicated "(Formerly national)" if a group has fallen back to local status. Otherwise, your list is accurate. Jax MN (talk) 17:21, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Which leads to the following situation, when a 50 chapter Honor Society goes down to 1 chapter, it is counted as local (formerly National), but if *that* chapter goes inactive, the infobox should change to National when the status becomes defunct... Not that I have a better solution...Naraht (talk) 19:38, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

VE format
In visual editor, the instructions for each field can be made visible. For example, when someone goes to add the founding date, they would see a prompt to use the date plus age template. This can be very helpful as most editors using VE are unlikely to hunt down Infobox fraternity's instructions. I am not sure what we would need to do to make our existing instructions visible. Look at Infobox university as an example, as prompts are visible with it. Rublamb (talk) 20:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That is using the template data editor. For Infobox University, you can see what they have by using https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Infobox_university/doc&action=edit&templatedata=edit . For Infobox Fraternity you can use https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Infobox_fraternity/doc&action=edit&templatedata=edit . If you want to add for a specific entry click on it, if you want to resort, click on the three bars to the left of each entry and move it. It doesn't work well to try to move it more than a page at a time, so I'd move it up about 10 rows and then scroll. I'm heading to bed, but if you haven't completely redone things by morning, I'll get involved then. :)Naraht (talk) 03:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)