Template talk:Infobox military person/Archive 3

Propose specifying sentence case for "rank" values
I propose adding "sentence case" to the instructions for the "rank" parameter, to parallel the "occupation" parameter in the infobox person template, which says "Please observe sentence case and capitalise only the first letter of the first item; e.g.: Musician &bull; actor &bull; singer-songwriter". In MOS:MILTERMS it is made clear that military ranks are to be treated the same as civilian job titles, that is, not capitalized except to begin a sentence or when used as part of a person's name. Chris the speller  yack  11:04, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per MOS:JOBTITLES When an unhyphenated compound title ... is capitalized (unless this is simply because it begins a sentence), each word begins with a capital letter. The infobox entries are capitalized, as the proposal admits, but clearly are not part of a sentence. As per quoted MOS compound ranks outside of sentences, like "Brigadier General", should have both words capitalized. ...GELongstreet (talk) 12:15, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment You have the MoS turned inside out. When an unhyphenated compound title ... is capitalized refers to cases where the compound is capitalized because it is "followed by a person's name to form a title" and "can be considered to have become part of the name: President Nixon" (better example: "Vice President Biden"); in the text "President Obama and Vice President Biden carried ...", both "Vice" and "President" are capitalized because they are considered part of Biden's name, but in "Vice presidents have exercised this latter power to varying extents ...", "presidents" is not capitalized because "vice presidents" is a common noun, and "Vice" is capitalized only because it begins a sentence. This is the exception that the MoS means by "When an unhyphenated compound title ... is capitalized (unless this is simply because it begins a sentence", so we do not begin each word with a capital letter. The MoS says nothing about whether a rank is used within a sentence or not, only that coming at the beginning of a sentence is cause for capitalizing the first word and no other. I cannot make this any clearer; you should avoid going off on a tangent of being inside/outside a sentence when the MoS does not state or imply anything like that. Chris the speller   yack  13:49, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I think in this case you´re the one turning it. The fact that it specifically says "(unless this is simply because it begins a sentence)" says that it is for all capitalization cases safe that one. And as it is not in a sentence the "lower case when used generically" doesn´t apply because it is not generic. So I can only repeat myself just as you do. We´ve already discussed and you´ve made your statement as have I; you started the proposal now let it run and give other editors time to speak up. ...GELongstreet (talk) 14:58, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Support See my comments on this page (section above). Holy (talk) 20:32, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
 * GELongstreet is willfully misinterpreting the MoS wording. "When an unhyphenated compound title ... is capitalized (unless this is simply because it begins a sentence)" means, and only means, when it is followed by a name, to form a title and name, as in "Brigadier General Lethbridge-Stewart". WP uses exactly the same sentence case convention for actual sentences  for headings, article titles, image captions, table headers, and list entries (including infobox data).  Everyone else on the system seem to have absorbed this, and it's why MOS:CAPS doesn't say "at the start of a sentence, a heading, an article title, an image caption, a table header, or a list entry (including infobox data)" over and over and over again.  See WP:AJRULE and don't force us to add yet another AJ rule to prevent people making plays at WP:GAMING the short wording "begins a sentence".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ &gt;ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ&lt;  02:25, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Terms of separation
Shouldn't there be a field in this infobox for the terms of separation from the military, whether retired, honorably or dishonorably discharged, or whatever other such terms exist? – Athaenara ✉  04:03, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Children?
It seems the children param is not recognized. Any clue? Carlotm (talk) 01:16, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I would support adding children. Edit request has been submitted. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 22:15, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Placed under Spouse. Please update the documentation. – Train2104 (t • c) 23:01, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 29 December 2017
For the image parameter, remove "upright=1" so that individual articles can use the upright parameter instead of setting the size of the image. - Mnnlaxer &#124; talk  &#124; stalk 03:48, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * image_upright added. —&thinsp;JJMC89&thinsp; (T·C) 04:34, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. - Mnnlaxer &#124; talk  &#124; stalk 06:29, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 1 January 2018
The tag  should be added following the slash in   per WP:LINEBREAK and WP:SHY. Thanks, 142.161.81.20 (talk) 04:41, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Cabayi (talk) 09:56, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Honorifics
Please change to match : To this: Thank-you.--Nev&eacute;–selbert 11:06, 24 December 2017 (UTC)


 * MOS:FONTSIZE requires 85%. Perhaps change both to 85%? Cabayi (talk) 11:39, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Cabayi, that section is inside a "font-size:125%" and 77% of 125% is sufficiently above 85%. I will make the change. Frietjes (talk) 13:30, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Neve-selbert, done. Frietjes (talk) 13:32, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Honorifics (again)
Could honorific_prefix and honorific_suffix be un-bolded please? The above edits made the text smaller but it missed off removing the bolding to truly match the formatting at Infobox person. Thanks, Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 23:59, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:47, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 13:17, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Education
Could education and alma_mater please be added? Thanks, Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 18:17, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. —&thinsp;JJMC89&thinsp; (T·C) 02:48, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay. Does anyone object to having the above parameters added? This must be one of the only biographical inboxes that doesn't have these two parameters. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 15:20, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I support the addition of those parameters as they would be of some relevance quite often. However if you want more opinions or input to reach a concensus I´d suggest you drop a word at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history ...GELongstreet (talk) 22:20, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

What to do if serviced in more than one branch of the military?
How should it be handled if a person started their career in one branch of service, and subsequently serviced in another branch of service? &mdash; ERcheck (talk) 03:02, 3 February 2018 (UTC)


 * T. E. Lawrence -- Cabayi (talk) 09:02, 3 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you. &mdash; ERcheck (talk) 22:40, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 29 March 2018
Replace with so that if there is only one child, the label will display Child instead of Children. Thanks, L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:10, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm going to decline the request for now, based on that there has not been a discussion on the matter and such a change could be seen as controversial. Feel free to activate the request again once there is a demonstrated consensus for the change. Jon Kolbert (talk) 22:24, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

image parameter
I was looking at Category:Infobox military person image param needs updating which lists articles that use this template with the = instead of =example.jpg, mainly to be consistent with other infoboxes. However, the majority of these articles have an two images (a photo of the person and a medal), as in Ralph E. Dias. Can the template be changed to more formally support this usage with additional fields for the medal image. MB 03:30, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * , perhaps you can help? MB 13:51, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * , [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harold_C._Agerholm&type=revision&diff=846899723&oldid=841728620 this works now]. make sure you watch out for any old 'image_size' parameters that were being ignored before.  the new parameters are medal, medal_size, medal_alt.  Frietjes (talk) 15:25, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * generally, you should not need to set any of the size parameters. the medal image is scaled to be smaller, and the primary image is scaled if there is a medal image next to it. Frietjes (talk) 15:40, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Parents
Why does this template not accept father/mother/parents parameters? Infobox person accepts those. Alexis Jazz (talk) 02:53, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Need variation for multi-branch service
The "Template:Infobox military person" has been used in nearly 33,000 pages, so I think we need a closely related infobox to display multiple service branches, especially for different nations as with U.S. versus the Confederacy, in the case of General Robert E. Lee and others. I plan to create related infobox "Template:Infobox military person multi" for optional use when 2 branches or more, and we can further expand that co-template for use in a few hundred pages without risking upset to the current 33,000 pages using the single-branch variation. Because a minimum of 2 branches would be listed, then banner headers would appear inside the infobox, somewhat like multiple political offices. I also think listing battles separately for each service branch would be a great benefit, to reduce confusion. However, the "spouse=" could continue to list all spouses under a single entry regardless of the various nation "allegiance2=" banners. Should the awards be listed separately for each service branch? -Wikid77 (talk) 22:08, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Currently the service of those who changed countries is listed by bullets or a plainlist, for example Stonewall Jackson. I don't see why a separate parameter is necessary. Kges1901 (talk) 01:44, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Army flag, seal or neither?
There are three different ways that I've seen the "branch" parameter completed for U.S. Army personnel. There are those that include the Army flag before the name (like William F. Dean), those that include the Department of the Army seal (e.g. George Juskalian) and those that include neither (e.g. Powhatan Beaty). Is one of these styles correct? Is one even preferred? All three of the articles which I linked here are WP:Good articles despite the discrepancy. --Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 01:26, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * MOS:FLAG specifically says that flags should not be used in biography infoboxes. Can't quite get why the GA review didn't pick up on this. Dom from Paris (talk) 07:42, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

branch_label
Would it be possible to add branch_label as a new parameter, same as how we already have serviceyears_label and battles_label? For one it'll allow us to chose either "service" or "branch", which I think might be beneficial for wrapping. Thank you. Jay D'Easy (talk) 15:37, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Enterprisey (talk!) 03:23, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Unit parameter: customizable? Alternatively: a "ships" parameter?
Hello, me again. Thanks for the last edit, by the way. It's much appreciated (by me, at least).

I came across George Nares' article and noticed how awkward it looks when all ships he's served on before he took his first command are included; given the fact that the unit parameter is used. On the one hand I think it might be useful to be able to customize the parameter with unit_label (especially for naval personnel), on the other hand I can see how too many customizable labels may lead to misuse (or abuse). In case of the latter, maybe a new parameter would be better afforded? ships perhaps?

Last minute edit: on the last (spooky ghost) hand, maybe do nothing and instead I should remove this parameter from Nares' infobox altogether?

At the very least I hope this request inspires a discussion. Thanks. Jay D. Easy (talk) 13:04, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. I'd recommend (neutrally) soliciting input to this discussion by linking to it on the talk pages of the relevant projects tagged at the top of this page. Cabayi (talk) 13:12, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Jay D. Easy, given that there is branch_label, rank_label, battles_label, it seems fairly uncontroversial to add unit_label. so, now added.  if this is controversial, someone can revert my edit. Frietjes (talk) 14:17, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Set width_style to person by default?
Hello. Please forgive my continued suggestions, but this is one of the templates I use most frequently.

There's a parameter a lot of people presumably aren't aware of: width_style; since it's not mentioned on the documentation page. It controls the infobox's width, naturally. By default, it's set to main_box_raw, which makes the infobox as wide as a military conflict infobox. This by itself is fine because a wider infobox doesn't create as many text wrapping issues as it otherwise may have. On the other hand, I have always felt this infobox's default width looks weird in comparison to other biography/person infoboxes, and frequently apply person when opportunity permits.

I'm not that well versed in template coding, but the code pertaining to the width is found at the top of the template's source code:
 * bodystyle   =

I did a little research beforehand, but did not manage to find any previous discussion on this subject. Forgive my ignorance if the current default width was previously agreed upon. Thank you. Jay D. Easy (talk) 23:14, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The documentation is not protected. You are welcome to edit it. What the code above says, as far as I can tell, is that if width_style is set to "narrow" or "person" or "auto", the width is set to "main_box_raw_auto_width". Otherwise, it is set to "main_box_raw". – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:25, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * That is actually what I was already doing before I canceled my edit and figured I could just as well put in this request. Jay D. Easy (talk) 07:10, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

image/medal
, I asked for this change last year as a non-controversial (because it made no actual change to rendered version) way to fix over 400 articles in Category:Infobox military person image param needs updating. It appears that project editors feel an infobox should not contain both images, per this discussion and a prior one I saw on the same page. So medal can either be deprecated, or perhaps displayed only if image has no value. MB 15:41, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , okay, I made two edits: (1) added a tracking category Category:Pages using infobox military person with both image and medal which will take time to fill up, and (2) modified the logic so only of the two will show, with image taking precedence. if suppressing the medal is controversial, someone can revert the second edit. Frietjes (talk) 15:58, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Discussion regarding the use of infobox criminal for military personnel
There is a discussion regarding the use of infobox criminal for military personnel here in case anyone is interested. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:46, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Informal spies?
What about people who are not part of the military per se, but agreed to spy for some cause such as Victor Martin for the Belgian resistance during World War II? On his Talk page, the military task force was involved from the Biography WikiProject, but he was also an academic. Thanks to anybody who can follow up on this, both on his page and in the guidelines on this template's documentation page if firm guidelines can be set. Unfortunately, my real life limitations force me to just leave this here. —Geekdiva (talk) 12:19, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Something is wrong here
Does anyone know why Children is outputing a lablel of "Spouse(s)". There doesn't seem to be an obvious issue with the syntax.  Ergo Sum  03:19, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I found the problem. It wasn't with the template code, but with the TemplateData. Fixed now.  Ergo Sum  03:21, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

When the 'obvious' assumptions go wrong
See my comments at Talk:Heinz_Guderian. Nothing wrong, it's just that what's right looks wrong. (sigh) Perhaps documentation to relate allegiance dates with dates of service could be added? I mean, *you* know how the template is to be used, but others may not... Shenme (talk) 03:18, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Proposed additional parameters
I propose adding alma_mater and education to this infobox. There are other "personal" parameters in this infobox (eg spouse), so two more wouldn't be out of place. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 00:17, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Support I'm surprised that this parameter doesn't already exist, since it's standard on other biographical infoboxes, e.g. Infobox person. In this case, I would support adding only alma_mater. I've added the proposed parameter to the sandbox. Let me know what you think. If there's no opposition, I'll go ahead and add it to the live template.  Ergo Sum   17:07, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅ .  Ergo Sum  00:39, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Convert to wrapper
This should be converted to wrapper of Infobox person per WP:INFOCOL Capankajsmilyo(Talk 00:28, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Please stop this disruptive spamming. Just take a look at the table above. There are major differences in the parameters supported by each template. Also, as I have already told you at one of the far too many pages on which you have spammed tables like this, your parameter list for Infobox person is incorrect. 1, for example, is not supported by Infobox person. The documentation page for the tool you are using has a caveat explaining that you need to validate its output. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:46, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

criteria for notable awards
At Template:Infobox military person/doc it says with regard to awards, "notable awards or decorations the person received; exhaustive lists should be worked into the prose. Separate multiple entries using Plainlist." To define "notable" in this context, I've taken the tack that if an award doesn't have a "recipients of…" category (e.g. the Silver Star), then it isn't notable enough to warrant infobox inclusion. Might this be suitable enough to lay out as recommended SOP? —  Fourthords  &#124; =Λ= &#124; 00:08, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Alignment bug
In Charles Sweeny, if the branch_label field is present (even if empty), the branches are centered and the heading "Service/branch" is missing, but if the empty field is removed, it becomes left aligned and the heading appears (which is what I wanted). Clarityfiend (talk) 20:58, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * . Good catch! – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:26, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Icons in infobox
I don't usually edit military-related articles, but as I edit biographies I sometimes see this infobox included on a page. Some, like James Arness, have an array of icons within the military infobox. It seems to me that using icons in parameters such as Rank, Unit, and Awards goes against MOS:ICONDECORATION, and I noticed that the example on Template:Infobox military person contains only one icon -- the American flag.

Would I be wrong if I removed icons from infoboxes on pages like James Arness? I would like to have the opinions of editors who are familiar with this topic. Eddie Blick (talk) 01:51, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

It it ok to use this infobox for fictional people?
Erwin König is a fictional German soldier but his article has a military person infobox. 119.74.177.38 (talk) 04:17, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Template:Infobox character. -- Renat 01:54, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Boolean handling
For embed, this template uses only lc, not yesno. Is there a reason for that? Using yesno would allow improved boolean handling, e.g. if someone accidentally writes y. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 22:18, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

"Known_for" parameter
Please add "known_for" parameter, in the same way as is now present in the Template:Infobox person. Besides their military ranks, battles, etc., many of the subjects have other areas of notability, such as war crimes or notable orders. For example, Walter von Reichenau is known for his Severity Order, but there's no current way to reflect this in the infobox. The best placement to render this in the infobox as displayed to the reader would be in between Commands held (above) and Battles/wars (below). --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:55, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅.  P.I. Ellsworth &numsp;- ed.  put'r there 02:58, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

"reported_death" parameter
Please add a "reported_death" parameter for individuals that have reportedly died but it has not been officially confirmed. This is important for military persons who are reported to have been killed in conflict but their nation has declined confirm that they have been killed. It could be years or even decades before official confirmation acknowledges their death. GravisZro (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * This can be handled in other ways without a separate parameter: just add "(reported)" after the date, or use efn and add a more detailed footnote. MB 14:17, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * ❌ as there is ongoing discussion about this above still, once a consensus emerges please reactivate the request if needed. — xaosflux  Talk 15:17, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Help requested: New parameters needed for Prisoner of War status
Parameters might include:

prisoner of war = yes

missing in action = yes (if the case, instead of prisoner of war) (many POWs are listed as "missing in action" [MIA] because their captors won't confirm that they have them)

conflict = (war or military operation or peacekeeping action) (leave open for any text)

captors = (nation or paramilitary group or terrorist group holding the military person captive) (allow parameter to recieve any text)

date of capture =

date of disappearance (If MIA) =

circumstances of capture = ("specific battle", or "shot down in fighter jet", or "special forces operation" or "captured while on patrol" etc...) (In other words, leave parameter open to recieve any text).

location of imprisonment = (leave open for any text, might be "Lubyanka prison in Russia" [for Ukrainian POWs] or a 'specific prison in Syria', etc...)

circumstances of captivity = (leave open for any text, might include "harsh" or "torture" or "no medical treatment" or "solitary confinement" or even "unknown" etc....)

negotiating parties = (Nations or NGOs / humanitarian organizations involved with release negotiations)

status of release negotiations = ("stalled" or "in progress" or "none") (perhaps allow any text)

released = (yes or no)

escaped = (yes or no)

died in captivity = (yes or no)

still in captivity = (yes or no)

date of release =

date of escape =

date of death in captivity =

1) (Automatically calculates and posts [from capture / disappearance / date to release / escape date] number of years, months (and days?) in captivity)

Or 2) (Automatically counts years, months (and days?) [to todays date from date of capture / disappearance], if still in captivity or still MIA)

resulting health problems = (leave open for any text, might include "PTSD", or "injuries from torture" or "neuropathy" [very common in cold places like Korea [Korean War ex-POWs], essentially permanent loss of feeling in feet or hands due to (repeated) frostbite] etc. Any text might be added).

special honors = (honors or medals or rank-promotion conferred related to POW experience) (leave open text input)

IMHO, these new parameters should be added into the existing "military person" type infobox (not be a seperate infobox) because the POW experience is a part of some people's military career.

So these should be optional added parameters for the military person infobox, not a seperate infobox


 * I am from a military family and we were close to an organization for families of US POWs / MIAs so I can tell you there are thousands of such former POWs and MIAs (and some current ones) in the USA (alone) not to mention other countries. My father was also a Korean War POW (although he is not notable by Wikipedia standards). There are many who were / are notable however.

Note: Boldface is only used here to emphasize key points.

Sincere thanks in advance to anyone who might be able to make something like this work.

Chesapeake77 (talk) 07:11, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Putting military rank in honorific_prefix parameter
I've seen cases where the "honorific_prefix" is filled with the subject's military rank. I think it is redundant to the "rank" parameter that is always filled. Should "honorific_prefix" be filled with military rank or not? Aithus (talk) 05:05, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Edit request 25 August 2023
Description of suggested change: Addition of disappearance parameters to the template when death date is uncertain. This request comes specifically for the article Hans Kammler, whose death date is widely debated, however his disappearance date is more certain.

Diff: A y d o h 8 ( t a l k ) 01:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please make your requested changes to the template's sandbox first; see WP:TESTCASES. hopefully it will help that the [sandbox] has been synchronized with the live template, and a test case for [Hans Kammler] has been added to the testcases page.  P.I. Ellsworth &thinsp;,  ed.  put'er there 10:27, 25 August 2023 (UTC)