Template talk:Infobox person/Archive 10

Chinese person
I hope to see a general template for Chinese people. I don't know how often it will be used, but I want in particular to replace the Infobox being used at Liu Xiaobo with one that incorporates Chinese script and pronunciations, obviating the use of an extra template (Chinese). The closest one I have seen is Template:Infobox Chinese-language singer and actor. Naturally, most of the rubrics are inappropriate. What to do? -- Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:36, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * How about making a plugin module which has the Chinese spellings and pronunciations? For example, just embed bits from Chinese, rather than creating a whole new person template.  Plastikspork ―Œ (talk)  02:50, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Yep, I can go for that. How would we do it without polluting these already very busy family of templates? -- Ohconfucius ¡digame! 08:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Infobox Korean name supports subclassing so that it can be used inside this template; you can see an example of this at Park Han-byul. Perhaps something similar for Chinese names? PC78 (talk) 18:00, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Military service parameters
editprotected I'd like to see the addition of a few military parameters, like Infobox officeholder. Here, I've copied the relevant code from that template. Would someone please add it to the template code? I'll update the /doc.--GrapedApe (talk) 17:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * nickname =
 * allegiance =
 * branch =
 * serviceyears =
 * rank =
 * unit =
 * commands =
 * battles =
 * awards =
 * military_blank1=
 * military_data1=
 * military_blank2=
 * military_data2=
 * military_blank3=
 * military_data3=
 * military_blank4=
 * military_data4=
 * military_blank5=
 * military_data5=


 * The code above won't work if it's simply pasted into this template. In any case, I think this needs some discussion, particuarly if the intention is to deprecate Infobox military person in favour of this template. Otherwise, this is probably best handled by enabling subclassing in the other template. PC78 (talk) 19:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No, my intention isn't to deprecate anything--I just think it's a good idea, since lots of people who aren't notable for being a military person, still served in the military. Like I said, these parameters already appear in Infobox officeholder. Here's an example: Jon Soltz, who is a political activist (not an officeholder) who served in the military.  --GrapedApe (talk) 19:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand what you want to achieve here, I just don't think it's the best way of going about it. I've made a counter-proposal over at Template talk:Infobox military person. PC78 (talk) 00:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Actors needing an image
If the image is missing in the infobox, can the infobox be configured to add the article to the hidden Category:Actors needing an image ? --Sreejith K (talk) 20:06, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the documentation, the talk page should be tagged with the needs-photo parameter in the WPBiography template. If you want it automatic for any marked as an actor or filmmaker, than you should ask at Template:WPBiography. 117Avenue (talk) 03:21, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

This category isn't supported anymore for the reasons stated above. Please don't add it anymore. Thanks. -- Magioladitis (talk) 03:42, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I've emptied the category and tagged it for deletion. PC78 (talk) 11:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Genre
Does anyone have an opinion regarding the addition of a genre field? I ask this since, there was one in before I merged it here. In that case, I found that this field was (typically) being used inappropriately, where the occupation or known_for or style field was what was wanted. However, looking through the "people" infobox category, I have seen this field in other boxes. I can add it if there is consensus to do so. Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 00:52, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I find this field unnecessary. -- Magioladitis (talk) 05:46, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I think we should add it. Plenty of other people infoboxes have it, and including it here will facilitate future merges. PC78 (talk) 10:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. -- Magioladitis (talk) 11:02, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Going forward, I wouldn't mind seeing many of these parameters moved to modules. This would allow for more logical grouping, so that one would know that Genre is related to the person's work as a "visual artist" or "musical artist" or "author" or whatever.  Otherwise, Genre is a not very specific.  Plastikspork ―Œ (talk)  15:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Over at Talk:Mark Zuckerberg
we're talking issues concerning use of this template at that article, if anyone's interested in helping us out.--Hodgson-Burnett&#39;s Secret Garden (talk) 15:24, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Languages
Language is an important aspect of all human individuals. Why not include the parameter of the languages a person is fluent in? Since language is something categorizable that all people have in common and is a defining quality, I feel that languages are important as basic information in characterizing a person. Commas, perhaps, could be used to separate languages in a list of multiple languages for those who speak more than one (and we could even designate, perhaps in parentheses, which language is a person's native one). Reading many articles on persons, a reader finds that the person's language often goes completely unmentioned.

Are we supposed to assume that the country in which people are born lets us suppose which language they speak/sign? (For example, do we blindly assume a person from Germany speaks German?) That would be a huge fallacy, since a person may have learned other languages in their life or been raised with a different language than the country's official one. If we are only led to assume a person's language, we are proven especially erroneous when considering countries like Belgium or Switzerland, which have three and four official languages; no assumption can be made here! Also, some people natively speak a sign language (which is never a country's official language) and, furthermore, millions of people speak/sign languages outside the realm of what a country deems "official."

My main point though, is that an individual's language is just as significant as their date of birth, nationality, or occupation, and so it should be a main paramater. Just as one's date of birth helps characterize a person's place in history to the reader, so does a person's language help place them in a similar way, culturally and personally. Wolfdog (talk) 06:19, 7 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Just as some randomly chosen examples, there is no mention of how Albert Einstein spoke English, how Edgar Allan Poe spoke French (just one of his many languages), and how Clint Eastwood speaks Italian, on the respective articles about them. Perhaps it would be awkward to mention these individuals' languages abruptly in the text of the articles without any sort of segue or transition. But this only serves as a better justification that they, instead, could certainly be (and, I feel, ought to be) mentioned in the infobox. Wolfdog (talk) 06:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Wonderful idea. Unfortunately, this template can only be edited by Administrators.  Why not contact them, Wolfdog, with your idea?  Playing the devil's advocate, I think each language listed for a person, though, should be supported by a strong reference. ProResearcher (talk) 03:35, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

left side?
Why is the box on the left side of the screen now? Did something change? For An Angel (talk) 15:51, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Where is it on the left side? I don't see it on the left. 117Avenue (talk) 20:16, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I imagine this was a glitch during the latest attempt to upgrade the Wikimedia software. I don't think it had anything to do with this template.  However, if this is not the case, please provide a link.  Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ (talk)  01:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, this only happened for a short time. But it was happening on every page that I looked at that had this template. For An Angel (talk) 07:08, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Given the timing, it was almost certainly the attempted MediWiki upgrade. Everything was going haywire that day. Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ (talk)  07:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Favorite Works
The "Infobox person" template includes a "notable_works" parameter for "Title(s) of notable work(s) (publications, compositions, sculptures, films, etc.) by the subject".

I am currently working on a new article for an Oscar-winning cinematographer. In the Infobox, I would like to list a couple of his favorite films, videos, etc. from other cinematographers to show works that he admires. At present, I don't see a suitable parameter in the template.

Thus, I recommend adding a "favorite_works" parameter to the template. This parameter can apply to a broad range of people.

Yes, the template already includes an "influences" parameter. However, for many people, their "influences" and their "favorite works" will have different values. ProResearcher (talk) 03:49, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Education parameter
How is it supposed to be used? The documentation is singularly unhelpful. There was a discussion on this in 2009 (see here), but I don't think anything ever came of it. That discussion focused on the differences, if any, between the alma mater and education parameters.

To put this in a more concrete context, someone added the education parameter to Kate Middleton and put in her degree. That doesn't strike me as intuitive, but I tried – and failed – to find how it is used in other articles. I know of no way to search for the use of parameters, short of creating hidden categories.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:54, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Almae matres
The plural of alma mater is almae matres.. If someone has more than one listed, should it use the plural form? If so, should it be a separate parameter? StAnselm (talk) 07:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

hair n eye color
Articles such as Keeley Hazell have an infobox including the eye color and hair color. Is it possible we include hair and eye color for the All parameters template along with ethnicity, weight, height etc. Pass a Method   talk  13:17, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * No. Hair and eye color are quite non-notable and trivial for 99.99% of the population, and infoboxes for those people should not have such parameters. Infoboxes are designed to very briefly express important factors in a person's life. Hair and eye color are far from important for the vast majority of bios on Wikipedia. If we added hair and eye color, next someone would propose adding clothing sizes, type of nail polish used, favorite color, etc. etc. etc. Cresix (talk) 15:38, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with Cresix. Another factor to consider is the edit wars that can ensue due to the fact that many people change their hair color – and occasionally their eye color by way of contacts. Even if WP:RSs could be found for this info the changing nature of it will always lead to problems. If you want to see how bad things can get just look at the lame edit war over the color of an "animated" characters eyes here [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aurora_%28Disney%29&action=history]. On a separate note where did this "Infobox adult biography" come from. I have been editing here for just over six years and I can't remember ever seeing it before. That doesn't mean that it is bad but it should probably be merged with "Infobox person" to avoid this kind of anomaly. MarnetteD | Talk 15:59, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * According to its history, the templates infobox female adult bio and infobox adult male bio were merged into one. Equality for porn stars.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:46, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the research on that Bbb23. That also helps to explain why I haven't bumped into it before. I appreciate the time that you took in explaining this. Cheers. MarnetteD | Talk 16:52, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess i'm just going to use this infobox instead. Someone however told me that infobox is only for . Pass a Method   talk  16:35, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Although the documentation doesn't say, the template is for porn stars.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:42, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That is not a good idea. Any change like this needs to be made through consensus and you have not yet achieved that. You seem to be declaring that you will edit in a contentious manner against the current consensus. This more or less (more actually) proves my point about the need to merge this infobox. MarnetteD | Talk 16:45, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You want to include in infobox person such wonderful parameters as measurements and measureispenis? Then, of course, there are the parameters that I don't even understand (and, of course, are documented nowhere).--Bbb23 (talk) 16:50, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yikes. I haven't made it clear. I don't want new things added to infobox person. I want non notable stuff removed. My merge edit was also based on not knowing where the "Infobox adult biography" had come from. You, thankfully, have fixed that. Now I would propose that PassaMethod not try and add an infobox for Porn stars to other articles just to add information that there is a current consensus against. MarnetteD | Talk 16:56, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * the infoboxes are for nude moels, not necessarily for pornstars Pass a Method   talk  17:20, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd like some clarification. Is it true that Infobox adult biography is for porn-related bios, as that appears to be its primary usage? If so, should the infobox at Keeley Hazell be changed? Cresix (talk) 17:24, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes and yes, it should be changed to infobox model, which has the parameters for hair and eye color without the sex-related parameters. I'll change it.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:43, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. May i ask where i can find all these relevant infoboxes. Im sort of new to infoboxes Pass a Method   talk  18:05, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * They are all located in a cubbyhole in Florida underneath the five pillars of Wikipedia. Actually, look at Category:People infobox templates.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:16, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia seems a bit like a storage cabinet in a haunted house. Everything is hidden so inconveniently. Pass a Method   talk  18:22, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, Wikipedia is more like a haunted house with lots of rooms and storage cabinets that are strewn all over the place and connected (sometimes) by cobwebs. Also, the house keeps adding more and more rooms, making it harder and harder to find anything. I'm certainly more knowledgeable about the various resources at Wikipedia (and it is truly resource-rich) than when I started, but it's still a work in progress. I am amazed by some of the editors on Wikipedia and their knowledge of where things are and their ability to find things. One wonders whether any damage has been done to their brains in the acquisition of this knowledge. :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 18:30, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Lol, thanks for the wikilink. :-) Pass a Method   talk  18:44, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Where is the MOS regarding American v. USA for nationality?
I assume the topic has been discussed in great length before--where could I find the current guidelines? Thanks, Aristophanes68 (talk) 17:05, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion
A Parameter Called Handedness. This parameter would help with school reports to collect facts about people. FACTS ARE IMPORTANT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by John May's Assassin (talk • contribs) 14:06, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


 * This would cause infobox bloat in the extreme. As with so many of these requests there are the inevitable sourcing problems. As to collecting facts for school reports you would be better served creating categories for these so that the students would not have to go through articles page by page to glean this info. MarnetteD | Talk 14:58, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Reminder re: sourcing information
I'd like to suggest that the "Ethnicity" and "Religion" parameters be accompanied by a hidden comment which says "Must be supported by a citation from a reliable source". This might avoid the arguments that pop up about these subjects quite often. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * What sort of hidden comment? It sounds like you are suggesting something for the syntax copy-paste code in the documentation which can be freely edited. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:52, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course, you are correct, my apologies. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:01, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Translated names
Infobox settlement has the parameters native_name and native_name_lang. This template, (and other biographical templates such as Infobox officeholder) should have similar parameters so that such names are not shoe-horned into the name, as is currently the case on Nat Wei, and can be marked-up with the appropriate language code. So, please add:

and renumber subsequent lines accordingly. This has been tested in the sandbox. Andy Mabbett (User: Pigsonthewing ); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 10:53, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Have you got a specific edit request I can use, ie an oldid of a successful version in the sandbox that I can simply copy over? Woody (talk) 21:11, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there a reason that the "Birthname" parameter can't be used for this info? MarnetteD | Talk 15:00, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Nat Wei's birth name is, per that article's lede, "Nathanael Ming-Yan Wei". The article also gives Chinese translations of that name. Andy Mabbett (User: Pigsonthewing ); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 20:52, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I see. I was hoping to find something that you could use easily. Thanks for the followup. MarnetteD | Talk 21:44, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, no – I tested by using the next available number in the sequence. Andy Mabbett (User: Pigsonthewing ); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 20:52, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Has there been any discussion about this issue anywhere else? We don't normally add parameters to highly visible templates unless strongly supported by consensus. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:49, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Request disabled due to lack of response. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:20, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * This is the talk page for the template, is it not? What policy dictates that such other hoops have to be jumped through? Andy Mabbett (User: Pigsonthewing ); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 22:32, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It was only a question: I am not trying to make you jump through hoops unnecessarily, but I do have to check there is consensus for this change and there is not a lot of discussion here about it. However as the request has stood for two weeks without opposition I am hsppy to make the change. I have one question though: why are you calling the class "nickname" as this has quite a different meaning to "native name"? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:26, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. Sorry for being over-sensitive. The hCard microformat uses nickname for all forms of alternative names (nickname, maiden name, foreign names etc.) Andy Mabbett (User: Pigsonthewing ); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 13:12, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:21, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That's working well, on Aung San Suu Kyi, and I've updated the documentation. Andy Mabbett (User: Pigsonthewing ); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 13:43, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Academic degrees
This has been mentioned before in around the wiki, but I'd like to get a of resolution to it. In some cases, people include the academic degrees awarded in small font the alma mater section after the school name. See Barack Obama for an example. In other cases, people remove the degrees, saying that the alma mater section should only contain the alma matar. Could we please settle this? If degrees are acceptable in the alma mater section, could we please modify this documentation page to show something like what's on Obama's page as an example. If degrees are not acceptable in the alma mater section, could we please add a new section for degrees. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 00:28, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Officeholder parameters
Just wondering about the possible removal of the term, predecessor, successor, party, movement & opponents parameters from this infobox as Infobox officeholder does a lot better job with those sort of things. May be worth adding some tracking cats to see how widely uses those params are. Thoughts? -- WOSlinker (talk) 19:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Tracking categories are always good. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:37, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Was about 2200 using a combination of those params. Am now checking just term, predecessor, successor & opponents to see if that is a smaller list. -- WOSlinker (talk) 21:03, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Reduces it to 950. -- WOSlinker (talk) 18:17, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Age in birth date
The default parameter for birthdate shown in the documentation is:

YYYY

This is an error because by default it displays both the birth year and an erroneous calculated age based on the birth year. The "and age" parameter should be removed from "Birth date". — btphelps (talk) (contribs) 17:37, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's just an example. Of course, you still can change it. -- Magioladitis (talk) 17:54, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

It only works (and was designed) for someone still alive. If dead, both dates are put into the 'Death year' parameter and the resulting calculation is correct. There are templates for 'birth date and age' and 'birth year and age', but not for 'birth year'. Flatterworld (talk) 17:58, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Alma mater

 * "Alma mater" should be unitalized. It is considered an English word now,http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/style_manual/f.html and should thus not be italicized. Inverse Hypercube  23:09, 27 May 2011 (UTC)


 * What is the significance of listing both "education" and "alma mater"? Secondary school (high school) and university (college)? See eg Michael Grade, where both seem to be secondary schools: surely a mistake?

Birth name field
Looks like we have an ambiguity that will need consensus to clear up. The instructions for the birth name field currently read "Name at birth; only use if different from name." Some editors interpret this to mean it only needs to be used if the name is much different from the current name. See Michael Caine and Kirk Douglas for example. Other editors feel that a persons full name – whether they have one or more middle names – means that it merits inclusion in the infobox. Thus, to avoid edit wars, we should enhance our instructions on the template page. So I will start the following subsections of this thread. MarnetteD | Talk 19:30, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Use birth name field only when current name is different from birth name – no matter what the middle name is
Support Cutting back on infobox clutter is always preferable and the mention of any middle names in the lead is sufficient. MarnetteD | Talk 19:30, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Support We have the common name (the title of the article) and the full name (at the very beginning of the article). Birthname is for instance which cannot be covered with these. Flatterworld (talk) 14:39, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Support. IMHO field birth_name should be used only in particular cases, when WP:COMMONNAME requires to use a "common name" different from the official name (WP:OFFICIALNAMES), as the cases of some actors and popes. In this case the field "name" should contain the common name, and the field "birth_name" should contain the official name. A ntv (talk) 20:05, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Other
The infobox should include the all names, including middle names and long forms (e.g. "Robert" for "Bob"), in one parameter or another, not least so that these are emitted as metadata. while these may already be in the lede or elsewhere in an article, the infobox exists to marshal such data clearly and unambiguously. Andy Mabbett (User: Pigsonthewing ); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 11:11, 30 June 2011 (UTC)