Template talk:Infobox university/Archive 10

Logo
Recently find some think it is fine to use a image of alumni hall in this section. See Saint Anselm College and its talk page, I wonder if this is an acceptable behaviour as the section is for LOGO rather than image (eventhough the image may be representative as some argued) ?-- 淺藍雪 ❉ 20:02, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * There's no absolute reason why the parameter cannot be used for something other than a logo, although it is recommended and is part of project's guide on universities. I've noticed the article has had two discussions on its talk page about the issue, but cannot see a consensus even being reached. Before the image is added, a consensus should be reached and I'd advise pinging the WikiProject members and perhaps asking for someone to oversee the consensus decision. For the record, I would oppose the use of the image.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  20:31, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

motto_lang
Parameter motto_lang appears to have no visible effect on the infobox. Does it have an invisible effect? &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  00:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I found relevant discussion at Template_talk:Infobox_university/Archive_8, but it remains unclear which of the following is optimum for a Latin motto:


 * |motto=Haec est nostra sententia
 * |motto=Haec est nostra sententia |motto_lang=la
 * |motto=Haec est nostra sententia
 * |motto=Haec est nostra sententia |motto_lang=la &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  00:45, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

RfC announce: Religion in infoboxes
There is an RfC at Template talk:Infobox concerning what should be allowed in the religion entry in infoboxes. Please join the discussion and help us to arrive at a consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:37, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Founders in infobox?
Maybe I'm missing something, but there appears to be no parameter in the infobox for founders. I would think that would be important, especially for certain colleges. Can that be added? - Kzirkel (talk) 15:26, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Kzirkel, seems reasonable. will add it in a moment. Frietjes (talk) 14:57, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Professional = doctoral?
This PDF from University of Oklahoma counts undergraduate, graduate, and professional. I assume graduate=postgraduate. Does professional=doctoral for purposes of this infobox? &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  16:48, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, Mandruss, postgraduate students = graduate students. Dental (DDS), law (JD) and medical (MD) students are usually classified as "professional students" and not as "doctoral students," which is usually reserved for research Ph.D. candidates.  That said, common usage often confuses professional students and doctoral students.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:10, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Stated more succinctly: Would you state the number listed as professional using the doctoral parameter in this infobox? &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  17:39, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Mandruss, in order to be strictly accurate, we really should add a separate parameter for professional students because they're really not the same things as doctoral students. Let me take a look at the template this afternoon, and see if it's just a simple addition.  Question for you: are the universities you're working on providing a break-out of professional students vs. doctoral students?  Graduate students, of course, may include both.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:43, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Actually this is the first time I recall seeing "Professional", not that my exposure has been wide at all. I doubt I've looked closely at the numbers for ten schools. The OU example doesn't mention the word "doctoral" at all, or anything else (besides professional) that might be interpreted as doctoral. That document has very detailed breakdowns, so I would think they would give subtotals if graduate included doctoral, rather than lumping them together. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  17:50, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Generally speaking, "graduate" includes all degree programs for which a bachelor's degree is a prerequisite, including all master's degrees (e.g., M.A., M.S., etc.), all doctorates (e.g., Ph.D., D.Phil., etc.), and all graduate professional degrees (e.g., D.D.S., D.Pharm., J.D., LL.M., M.B.A., M.D.). "Professional" degrees are usually classified as a subcategory of graduate degrees, but are not considered a graduate research degree, even when they are nominally doctorates like a J.D. or M.D.; for instance, relatively uncommon graduate research doctorates do exist that rank above J.D. and M.D. degrees.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:00, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I currently have the article showing the "Undergraduate" number using undergrad, and the "Graduate" number using postgrad, and students excludes the "Professional" number. It sounds like that is the best we can do in this case, without knowing more about their numbers, which seems unknowable short of trying to get more information from the school. Don't think I have that much motivation. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  18:10, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 16 February 2016

 * class1    = nickname
 * data1     =
 * label2    = Other name
 * class2    = nickname
 * data2     =
 * label3    = Former name
 * class3    = nickname
 * data3     =
 * label4    = Motto
 * data4     =
 * label5    = Motto in English
 * data5     =
 * label6    = Unofficial Motto
 * data6     =

Can you all add this label to the Source code, lots of universities have verifiable Unofficial mottos.

Abattoir666 (talk) 21:59, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I dispute whether this has consensus. I, for one, am opposed to this addition; this infobox is already too lengthy and unwieldy. ElKevbo (talk) 22:02, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Please establish consensus for this change first (perhaps bring in people form WikiProject Schools) before reactivating the edit request. — xaosflux  Talk 02:12, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Staff vs. faculty
faculty displays as "Academic staff". Dartmouth College lists both in this document, with a difference of over 3-to-1 (3,503 staff, 1,081 faculty). I think many more schools publish a faculty count than do staff, so most infoboxes likely show faculty in his field. If we do so in this case, citing their document, it will create a verifiability problem. If we show the staff number instead, we will be comparing apples to oranges. Suggestions? &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  12:10, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I think "staff" is redundant if we know the number of faculty members. Staff typically includes non-classroom, academic support staff, such as department secretaries, etc., and may included, non-academic support staff, which have no impact on the student-faculty ratio.  I would only use the staff number as a last resort, when an accurate faculty number is not available.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:29, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * So you see no issue with verifiability, I take it—citing "Academic staff 1,081" with a source that says "Staff 3,503". I guess what I'm getting at is, if we mean faculty, we should say faculty, not academic staff. I don't understand why that was done, or what value it has. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  13:44, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Part of the problem is that the present Infobox university is the result of several merges and a bunch of random adds where there was no considered discussion of whether such added parameters were appropriate, redundant, etc. I would appreciate any detailed feedback you have on the availability of published numbers for faculty vs. academic staff vs. staff.  It's time that we critically review all of the parameters, delete any that are redundant, and update the documentation.  Too many folks have had their with this template, and too often they did not understand what they were doing.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:12, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Using "faculty" to mean academic staff is US English, in UK English, in contrast, faculty means an academic subdivision of the University, e.g "faculty of sciences". This template is used on many pages that are non-US English, so saying "faculty" would mean providing a separate "academic staff" parameter for use in the rest of the world, and updating all the relevant infoboxes. It would be far better to stick to the universal "academic staff", which is clearly a subset of all staff. Robminchin (talk) 04:06, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

University status parameter suggestion
Many UK universities have complicated foundation histories, resulting in a mishmash of dates in the 'established' parameter, for example (from University of St Mark & St John:

established    = 1923 (joint college) St John's (1840) St Marks (1841)

Nowhere does the infobox mention that the College gained University status in 2012. Unlike in the US, "University" is a protected title in the UK and cannot be used without government permission, so being granted University status is quite important. But many institutions were established well before gaining University status, and people tend to put the date of establishment in the "established" field (unsurprisingly). The addition of a "University status" parameter would clear things up and make a definite separation between establishment and University status.

What do people think? Robminchin (talk) 04:23, 18 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Infoboxes often lack the parameters to adequately describe the full story, with all its complexity and nuance. I think we should do what we can in the infobox and handle the rest in prose. If a reader can't take the time to read the relevant parts of the prose (History section?), they likely aren't too interested in the details. If the editor feels that anything they said in the infobox would be too misleading, I don't see why they couldn't code (see History). Just one guy's take, which is more than you've received for the 2 weeks+ up to now. :D &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  04:30, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Infobox university address
Template:Infobox university address has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Frietjes (talk) 13:02, 6 May 2016 (UTC)