Template talk:Japan-stub

I can see why some might not want the Japanese flag for the Japan-stub, but it would be nice to have some sort of graphic to go with the stub. I thought about a map of Japan, but all of the ones that I have found so far in my clipart collections look pretty unidentifiable once they are shrunk down to an appropriate size. I was also thinking that a nice temple gate could possibly be a nice graphic, but I haven't been able to find one of those that would work well. gK [[User talk:GK|&iquest;?]] 16:56, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * How about... a shot of a Japanese castle? Something samurai-ish?  Japanese characters? A Japanese doll?  (Copyright not verified)  Sushi?  Iron Chef?  One of these lovely pictures? (Copyright not verified) Japanese National Flower: Cherry Blossom (Sakura)?  I think the Japanese national flower would do very nicely. -- AllyUnion (talk) 01:34, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Links to Sakuras (Copyright not verified)
 * 1) Picture 1; From: Site 1
 * 2) Picture 2; Site 2
 * 3) Picture 3; Site 3
 * 4) Picture 4; Site 4
 * 5) Picture 5; Site 5 <- I like this one especially.
 * 6) Picture 6; Site 6
 * 7) Picture 7; Site 7

-- AllyUnion (talk) 01:34, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, why is the Japan flag not appropriate? If the topic is sufficently related to pick the Japan-stub, why is a flag not?  --ChrisRuvolo 00:43, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure personally. Ask the person who removed it.  See: User talk:TakuyaMurata -- AllyUnion (talk) 23:36, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My apology for not making my reasoning for removing the flag clear. The reason was the flag is political, and we'd better stay away from political matters in wikipedia. The best analogy I can think of is Nazi's swastika. True that swastika is probably related to Nazisml, thus it is seemingly natural to use it as the stub picture. But I don't think people feel comfortable seeing it in artcles. I know some people, if few, feel somehow the same feelings. For example, in Japan teachers often protest against the precense of the flag in graduation ceremonies and TV stations get complains from viewers by airing the footage containing the Japan flag. I don't necessarily believe those people's resoning or feelings are correct or resonable. I just think we ought to be sensive over sensive issues. Hope this will help. -- Taku 05:29, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm not following your argument. Are you saying that all flags should be removed from Wikipedia due to their political nature?  Your position seems to be extreme and not representative of an international audience.  Yes, the swastika would offend a general, international audience, due to its obvious negative connotations, but is the same true for the Flag of Japan? --Viriditas  | Talk 02:24, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * No, I am not saying all flags have too (perhaps negative) political connotations. And I am sure most of people have very indifferent feelings about the flag of Japan. It is however true that few feel uneasy seeing the flag. It is true as I said above that the use of the flag often leads to a dispute. Another example besides above is few people complained about showing of the flag when NHK, the national broadcasting station ends its the broadcast at a day. My point is few have a problem and we should be sensitive about it. I seems to me what those people are getting is that it is the Japanese government that uses a flag usually, thus the flag gives an impression of the government or the nation. The Japan flag in Olympic games, for example, makes sense because the national team presents Japan as a nation. On the other hands, this stub just means a stub related to Japan, not Japan as a national entity. It is like you don't use the flag of Japan in making a pamphlet about Japan for tourists. You want to put something reminding about Japan like sakura, why flag. -- Taku 05:01, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)


 * I want to respond to what you've written in both replies:
 * In your first reply, you said that you removed the flag because it was political, and you said we should "stay away from political matters in wikipedia"; I'm still not clear on your original statement. It should be noted that Wikipedia does not "stay away" from political topics, so your reasoning on that point is not supported by official policy.
 * In your second reply, you clarified your orgiinal position. You made the argument that using the flag is not only political but reflects  nationalistic or government implications.  On this point, I agree with you, and I see your point, however, I'm not sure an image of the sakura would scale at size 30, so it might not be a good image to use.  In the case of a geo stub, shouldn't we choose a geographical image, or at least something that will stand out like a flag?  Due to the small icon used on the stub, an image of cherry blossoms will be ambiguous. --Viriditas  | Talk 06:55, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * A photo of cherry blossoms has two problems. First is that when it is shrunken to a size appropriate for the japan-stub message, it becomes basically unrecognisable. The second problem is that even if you could find a good image or drawing of a cherry blossom, most people outside of Japan probably won't make the connection between sakura=japan. I thought that an image of Mt. Fuji might work, but after shrinking several of them, I decided that didn't work either.


 * I agree with Taku that there are reasons to avoid using the Japanese flag. Even within Japan there are problems with the flag, but it is even more of a problem for some outside of Japan (Korea, China, Taiwan, Philippines, etc.). The Japan National Tourist Organization, for example, doesn't use the flag on their website.


 * For some countries, a map of the country might work well as the graphic for a stub, but I've tried shrinking down several of the maps that I have in my clipart collections, and the image becomes unrecognisable at stub size.


 * I thought that a nice temple gate might be a good simple graphic. Finding a good drawing, or even a clear photo, has proved difficult. For examples of what I was thinking of, see, , and.


 * What is needed is a nice simple graphic where the association with Japan can be commonly inferred. The symbol for the Yen (¥) is unimaginative, but it fits that description. Some kanji might work well. For example: &#23798;&#22269; (island country = Japan ?). gK [[User talk:GK|&iquest;?]] 19:28, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I could probably create a good, clear, unambiguous image of a temple gate. Hopefully I'll have some time later. --Viriditas  | Talk 22:17, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Proposal
Unless anyone objects, I propose that we use a sakura or a group of sakura for this template. All we need to do is track down a free version of it. -- AllyUnion (talk) 04:29, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Free clip-art images


This is just a low-res sample. Following the image will take you to the sources. I was unable to find any free images of itsukushima torii but if I had to choose, I would choose the torii as it is an outstanding image that scales well at a small size.



The torii image is GFDL so I'm going to turn it into a small icon and post it here. --Viriditas | Talk 01:10, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)



I created the following from the clipart package from a commercial program and am claiming fair use since it was only a small part of a collage of Japanese-related images, it had to be modified to be usuable, and was then shrunk down as well. gK &iquest;? 01:40, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)



This is a modification of Image:Miyajima-torii.jpg, which is GFDL, so there should be no problems using this image. gK &iquest;? 02:02, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * That looks great at 30 pixels, unlike the sakura. Are there any objections to using this icon? --Viriditas  | Talk 03:25, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I also just found two places for Japanese-related images. gK &iquest;? 03:49, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * http://www.cnet-ta.ne.jp/p/pddlib/default.htm Public domain
 * http://park19.wakwak.com/~kaleido/index-e2.html "Free", whatever that means, but I couldn't find any sort of copyright notice.


 * I have no objections. It looks great. -- AllyUnion (talk) 05:13, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Comments

 * Do we need a poll at all? as I havn't seen any objection yet. We can just put this and see if someone opposes. -- Taku 23:42, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)
 * Added. --Viriditas | Talk 00:38, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Even though I am the one who proposed the idea of using the image of a Japanese temple gate, and then created the shrunk-down version, I do wonder if most naïve Wikipedia users will make the association between the image and Japan. gK &iquest;? 01:52, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I suppose it depends on where you are from. In the United States, the image of a Japanese temple gate is ubiquitous and commonly associated with Japanese culture. --Viriditas  | Talk 02:53, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I can say one thing... it looks more Japanese than Chinese. -- AllyUnion (talk) 02:29, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Use the above image for the template?

Approve

 * 1) -- AllyUnion (talk) 12:22, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * 2) Viriditas | Talk 22:56, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * 3) Taku 23:40, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)
 * 4) gK &iquest;? 01:52, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Japanese place stub
Anyone have suggestions for that? -- AllyUnion (talk) 10:14, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Do you mean suggestions for an image on Template:Japan-geo-stub? --Viriditas | Talk 10:36, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * The usual choice would be a map, but in my opinion if you use anything less than about 60 pixels wide a map of Japan looks more like some ink dribbles. Mt. Fuji is the most identifiable geographic feature in Japan, so it might be a good choice. I've tried shrinking down a number of photos, butnone of them were identifiable as Mt. Fuji after being shrunk. If we could find a simple line drawing of Mt. Fuji, that should be okay. gK &iquest;? 19:34, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Interwiki :ja
Can anyone confirm if ja:Template:JP-stub is the right intelanguage correspondent in japanese for this template? Thanks Ark25 (talk) 10:10, 6 June 2009 (UTC)