Template talk:Jewish outreach

Aliyah isn't part of Jewish outreach
This isn't a Jewish Outreach issue i don't understand why it comes here, Outreach means the broader concept of turning to others and bringing them into our being. Aliye is merely one single issue it does not define the broader being, should the Satmar Rebbe also be in this cat since he made some jews turn back to America?--יודל 15:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not a case of where Jews turn. They can turn any way they want. The Satmar Rebbe had followers in Israel, America and Europe, but Israel, not America is the Biblical home of the Jewish people. Only antisemites disagree with that statement. Indeed the Satmar Rebbe was the head of Jerusalem's Edah HaChareidis, and while they oppose the secular state for all sorts of fanciful reasons, they still use its drains and toilets and much more. The Satmar Rebbe, of blessed memory, is hopefully part of Orthodox Jewish outreach because he brought back to his brand of Hasidic Judaism so many Holocaust survivors from the brink of apathy after the war, and this in turn encouraged others to follow his example. As for Aliyah, it is part of reaching out by both the Israeli government (and before that it was part of religious effort by disciples of many great rabbis to move to Israel, as well as of the Jewish Agency later) all to help to bring Jews back home to their Jewish ancestral homeland in the Land of Israel. After the expulsion from Spain in 1492 and the Inquisition, many of the rabbis welcomed the Marano victims who had been forced to become Christians and brought them back to Yiddishkeit in Palestine which had been recently conquered by the Ottomans, and today as well it is also about many formerly assimilated Jews having the yearning to reconnect with Israel. Look, almost all Yordim are secular Israelis, and almost all Olim from the West are Orthodox/Jewishly religious Jews, so that it is clear to see the connection between being and becoming Orthodox/Jewishly religious and the desire to move to Israel (even if its government is not perfect by Haredi standards -- but then again, who and what is perfect in this world besides God?) Many modern Olim are in fact Baalei teshuva and the Israeli governement realized the power of kiruv to bring back alienated Jews when it gave the Aish HaTorah kiruv yeshiva the property for ONE dollar to build its multi-million complex opposite the Western Wall because it is fully aware that it is 100% proven that kiruv inspires Aliyah in most cases when it happens both in Israel (for many Americans studying in Israel) or outside of it. IZAK 06:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There are high numbers of russians who are pure gentiles and where brought to Israel, and Judaism isn't about the land Israel, although some Zionists say that the land is the big part of our identity most Hareidim have not excepted this, we can be perfect Jews without Israel. so the Kiruv concept although used at Aish and Birthright foundation as a great tool to spread judaism it is simply a marketing tool of Rav Weinberg and nothing more this should not be a outreach group. There are many more tricks and aspects used in Kiruv, like Mivtzaim in Chabad or Kolelim by the litvishe that playes a far bigger role in Kiruv and its not listed here.--יודל 12:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * (1) While many Russians who were brought to Israel are not Halachik Jews, they do have some Jewish relatives in their family, and that creates the complications. Even Moshe Rabbeinu decided to bring the eiruv rav ("mixed multitude") out of Egypt and they caused more problems than the Russians are doing. The problems of Who is a Jew? is a global issue and many American Jews are affected by it as well, but that does not mean that they should not benefit from Jewish outreach which is for anyone connected to the Jewish people in any way to try to "upgrade" them to become fully accepted Halachik Jews. You know, for that matter, many Haredi religious courts do not accept the conversions done under the auspices of the RCA and the Rabbanut, so what does that "prove"? Nothing! Just that there will always be different standards and politics until the Mashiach will come and will solve these issues once and for all. They will not be solved on Wikipedia (or anywhere on the Internet) by you or me, that is for sure. (2) I do not know what Siddur you pray from three times a day, but in mine it clearly mentions returning to the Land of Israel, Zion and rebuilding the Third Temple lots of times. You seem to think that when Jews say "Israel" they only think of a  "Zionist state" -- well that is utter bull. When religious Jews say "Israel" they think of many great things and they do not think about their ancestral home according to the "nusach Ahmadinejad" -- and anyone who does is a sicko. (3) Jews "can be perfect Jews" anywhere, true, even on the South Pole or without their clothes in Auschwitz too, but who would want to be in that kind of condition? Noone normal. (4) If all kiruv organizations would be as successful as Aish HaTorah then the world of Jewish outreach would be light years ahead of where it is right now. Aish HaTorah has figured out how to talk to, connect with, and attract the young generation of Jews, while the rest of the organiztions do not have a clue how to even say "Hi"! Oh, and how can you say that Aish HaTorah should not be called an outreach group. I think that is the best joke I have heard in a months. Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! (5) You state "There are many more tricks and aspects used in Kiruv" and if you think that "outreach" is about "tricks" or "aspects" then you should switch to writing about trick or treat on Halloween, you might find those subjects a lot more interesting. (6) Mivtzaim in Chabad or Kolelim by the litvishe are part of Orthodox Jewish outreach and are therefore included by this template. That should be pretty obvious, why do you {pretend?) not to get it?IZAK 02:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Russians are not brought up to Israel for Outreach, this is simply not true. They sneak with false marriage license as being married to Jews. And even the most lefty of Rabbis do not consider them Jews, they are defiling the Holy land, some are even neo-Nazis, and causing a great deal of Halachic problems, i fail to see your logic that somehow this is for the Outreach purpose. Yes i see a Zionistic desire to populate the land with more non-arabs, but lets not fool ourselves they are gentiles and not Jews even by Reform standards.
 * I agree with you on this; Israel of today is not the Israel we Jews Yearn, not even close, I know that the modern Orthodox are more Zionist and do think about this modern state as something Jewish, but overall you are right a main stream orthodox Jew called Hareidi does not think of Israel as a Jewish state.
 * We are better of in America and almost all over the world then in that country of the Zionists. You bring up Auschwitz, i will only say to u what my rabbi says who is responsible for Auschwitz if not the Zionists, so do not think that 6 million Jews are gone, the numbers keep on growing and growing thanks to the Israeli state.
 * Fully agree, Rav Wienberg is a genies, but he is what he is. But he has done allot of good in Kiruv and probably one of its biggest pioneers and leaders. This is no question a premise nobody will argue with. If i call Bil Clinton A genius and the worlds best communicator it does not mean he is perfect.
 * Everything in life is tricks to accomplish something. Our father Yaakov was a trickster. Dont get me wrong never will i diminish the work of Aish HaTorah or Chabad or others who do the holy work of Kiruv, but as you say Aish HaTorah has crossed the line here they use Israeli government money designated for Aliyah and channel it to Outreach, i am not the Rabbi who gave them this Heter, and nor will i say that they are simply thieves, that money was not meant for Outreach to Judaism. Lets call it a trick, because thats what it is.
 * And why is Aliyah different that it needs here in the template a separate line? why not include Mivtsaim and Kolelim here as well in the template, which those 2 factors play out a far more bigger and far more product full then Aliyah in this regards of Outreach?--יודל 12:37, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, it seems that finally I am getting some good responses from you so I will reply:
 * 1) No-one can generalize and say "Russians" this-and-that because it's all one package deal. This is what Klal Yisrael looks like after suffering under the Czars and a hundred years of Bolshevism. It is a nebech, to look at all these people, and yet they are like anyone else on a communal level. They are the embodiment of the yetzer hatov and the yetzer hara in a community. So that it is impossible to make distinctions among them, they are welcome, and the sorting out will take place over time about who is a Halachik Jew or not. But the Israelis cannot be "frummer" than the Nazis, they must accept them on good faith. Before the Jews were let out of Russia, it was very much Rabbis who encouraged them and built them up as Jews and as Zionists. The Russian Jews woke up with the Six Day War, a lot of the Refuseniks became Orthodox Jews and leaders of the whole Russian Aliya movement, and it was Rabbis such as Meir Kahane ("Let My People Go!"), Dovid Hollander (missions and matzo), and of course the Lubavitcher Rebbe (shluchim and seforim) who built up the seeds of a religious pride and awarenes in Russian Jews and that pride expresses itself in them making Aliya. Ask the average Russian Jew, no matter how far he/she is from Judaism, who is his "best rabbi" and 99% of them will say it's the Lubavicher Rebbe, and they believe this all the way to Ben Gurrion Airport and to the day they may disco in Tel Aviv or maybe even die fighting in the Israeli army, they even put picture of him up on their rifles and non-kosher restaurants! (By the way, let us not forget the powerful roles of Rabbis in the Zionist movement, such as Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook and Yitzchak Yaacov Reines who came from Haredi backgrounds and education and put Aliyah on the agenda as much as anything else, if not more so, to save Jews from what was coming in Europe. And no, no-one knows "why" the Holocaust "really" happened, we will have to wait for God to tell us Himself when the TRUE Jewish Mashiach comes.) The first step is to come home to Israel. The second step is to come home to Judaism. One cannot go without the other, just as you cannot take a secular Jew and order him to put on a bekishe and grow peyos, that would be crazy because outreach works in small steps with Jewish education most of the time. The Reform Jews in America have the same problems as the Russian Jews, or worse, because the Russians do not have any "religious arguments" but the Reform justify themselves as a religion and they accept the child of a Jewish father married to a gentile woman as a "Jew" a huge problem if they ever move to Israel by the thousands, they will bring plenty of non-Halachik Jews with them as well, just like the Russians.
 * 2) Haredim are working within the official State of Israel to change it, and they are doing it through outreach and politics. That is why they have huge kiruv efforts like Lev Le'Achim and they have huge political power to bring more Judaism through Agudat Israel, Degel HaTorah and Shas.
 * 3) Of course America is the greatest power on this Earth and the greatest gentile nation that the world has ever had. Without America the Jews in Israel and anywhere would be kapput. It is a malchus shel chesed a merciful nation that has fought against and destroyd all the tyranies of the world since it was founded in 1776. But the Jews still pray for a return to Tzion and it seems that over half of them are already there (Israel has more Jews than America now and it will go Israel's way until the end of times.) In any case America is the BIGGEST supporter of the Israeli Zionists, for many reasons. So if you don't like Israel you should also go complain to the Americans for supporting its creation and keeping it strong and armed against the Arabs. The USA is VERY proud that it supporst Israel and they think that the Neturei Karta are CRAZY! It is only neo-Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, Nation of Islam, the PLO the Ayatollahs, Hezbollah, Hamas and Ahmadinejad who want to "invite" and "kiss up to" the Neturei Karta wannabies (because the real Neturei Karta are hidden in Jerusalem and they hate the publicity-hounds who have taken over their original movement.) You know, before the Holocaust there were also plenty of misguided Jews who wanted to "kiss up to the Nazis" and "make nice" to Hitler, but it was all for nothing. It is a chutzpa to criticize Zionists if one is part of the biggest Jew-hating and antisemitic plagues on Earth.
 * 4) I never said that Rabbi Noach Weinberg was a lovable King Kong, I was pointing out that Aish HaTorah has mastered the art of kiruv and it's not just tricks. Not everything in life is "tricks" you know! Or maybe that is just the way you think, I don't know. Oh and by the way, in the English language, the word "tricks" can also mean "sexual intercourse" so be very careful how you utilise that word in the future! By the way again, who is his second wife? I hope it's not Monica Lewinsky, although I did hear once that she thought of becoming frum and maybe she did after all...?
 * 5) By the way, Aish HaTorah raises its money from Jews all over the world. The place they built their center is in Old Jerusalem. The Israelis gave it to Aish HaTorah, but I do not know who the Israelis got it from, do you?
 * 6) Mivtsaim and Kolelim are part of Orthodox Jewish outreach and are very different to the motivations, processes and methods of Aliyah.

Thanks again for answering thoughfully, although sometimes I feel that I am answering different people at your end...? IZAK 10:44, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * OK so by your definition Hitler himself was a Jew. Because as the historic studies about him suggest that somewhere in his lineage there was Jews.
 * Lets not fool ourselves the Israeli government is filing the holy land with pure arien gentiles, even by the most vigorous of Nazi standers.
 * And it is not out of kiruv, it is a purely political decision, to save and manipulate a non-Arab majority of citizens, so the Jewishness should be preserved in that shaky government.
 * Most Russians are not Jews, and those who are is only thanks to the global outreach effort, not in Israel, but this is happening long before Zionism, and has nothing to do even remotely with Aliya.
 * Aliya is not even remotely a factor in the Outreach effort, especially compared to the other factors like Kollelim and Mivtsaim. Aliya has only hindered and destroyed the outreach effort, because the whole point of a Jew now living there is to be near the so many Yeshivas and Frum Community's, that plays a direct effect on the Jew to be more Jewish, but since most of those Russians do not live near religious Jewish communities, but put into community's that need help with Jewish schools and Jewish life, the Russians only kill those half religious traditional Jews, so overall this is a bad decision to encourage them to make Aliya, The holy outreach rabbis in the former soviet union do indeed watch very carefully who they send up there in the holy land. Yes there is 1 orthodox rabbi in Kiev, (that i know of from my visiting mostly if not virtually all of those former soviet union Jewish communities) with no affiliation to Chabad that does get involved minimally in the Zionist propaganda to make aliya, but he is doing his minimum only to receive the money from the Suchnut and he is an outcast mainly because of this within chabad circles, but our satamr community do support him since we understand his position and we agree on it, that Aliyah is only a trick to get the money from those non-observant orgs, our president from Kiryas Joel David Ekstien, who is a huge philanthropist, and himself a son from a Satmar prominent rabbi who was sent to Argentina by Reb Yoel to do in kiruv over there, long before mainstream Judaism awakened themselves to this important outreach work, even donated his building there, in worth of well over a half a million dollars, if you want the Rabbi's name i will be happy to send them via email, I do respect his work more then all chabadskers, although I don't feel comfortable to name him on this discussion.
 * I except your claim that Rav Kook did see in this a form of Outreach, and i would therefore give in to you on this discussion, and thank you for the explaining of it and for including it in here in the first place, but for your info; today the followers of rav kook all see he was wrong and they started a very successful outreach project called torah mitision that puts its emphasis more on Torah then on the land. i will now make my effort to write of this phenomena and i ask you to help me on this since you have written 3 outreach articles, Reform Conservative and Orthodox, i believe that the modern orthodox approach is being ignored. Thanks in beforehand.
 * We do not know how G-d is ruling the world, but our rabbis do know and if they say it the disciples of them must except it, i don't know who your rabbi is, neither do i care, because most orthodox rabbis do indeed believe in teaching the will of g-d to their flock.
 * you slightly have the priorities mixed up, the first step is Jewishness and then comes the land. even rav kook did not think that first is the land, but yes he did love the Jews who only had the second step, and so do i and all of the Jews.
 * Yes America is the biggest supporter of Israel, and thats why i am proud to be an American citizen. A gentile who is opposed to Israel isn't a good gentile. I Agree with you on this.
 * Reform Jews i already expressed my personal opinion to u on them, i think a good gentile is better then a reform Jew, but it is my opinion and i do fully except yours, i do not say most Jews think like me, after all frum Jews are not even a percentage of the overall collective Jewish people of today. But lets see the facts who fights more for Israel? the Jews or the Christians, most jews hate Israel, and most Christians love Israel, so even in your case you are closer to the Christien then to the Jew.
 * netura karta are indeed a crazy bunch of fools, but crazy people deliver the message. they are activists like al sharpton, most people think of sharpton as a bum and a empty hot head, but most people do indeed respect his message of liberation to his people. the neture karta do the satmar work aggressively and the means are sometimes stupid and dangerously foolish, and indeed no respected rabbi has yet come out publicly to defend them, but silently and when nobody sees all of satmar do support them because they successfully took the satamr view to the world wide. the end goal is achieved and respected by most people in America and around the world, satmar has condemned them and will continue to do so, but this does not mean that their goal isn't holy. believe me i know those 4 activists very personal, and all of them are homeless unemployed rich kids who don't even have the skills of a geniter, but their holly job is done trough dirty tricks and shunned means, that a mentally stable person would never do.
 * Rav Wienberg is indeed the biggest achiever in this field and therefore by all means he is a holy Jew. as r' shlomeleh kariblach would say the holiest of the holiest, rest assured he was allowed and was right to do it, i cannot give you the whole context of the story, but in no way does this diminish his holiness, this man is above all Jews alive today, not because of his of his teachings, but only because of his merits, he did not personally teach all Jews, but he is the motivator of so many countless rabbis institutions activists and jews to do good, I as a reader of reb Zelig Pliskin's books, which is on his payroll will be the last person on earth to talk negative about this giant rav wienberg. I was just defending him from your accusations that he uses Aliya in his approach, this is false he uses the funds but spends it not on Aliya, this is clearly a trick since Rav Weinberg is a Hareidi and does not follow rav kooks way in Judaism. Again Aliya is not a factor at all in his approach.
 * I do know it is the dirty money of the Zionists, but since aish receives money from dirtier sources, in fact most of the money comes from Hollywood so the Zionist money is nothing of any significance in relevance to the overall budget.
 * Mivtsaim and Kolelim are part of Orthodox Jewish outreach and Aliya is not, but since you mentioned Rav Kook i must agree that i was wrong and historically Aliya was used by his followers as outreach.
 * I am one man, maybe i sometimes have more time to edit my English so i come across different in your impression, but this is true in every editor.--יודל 19:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi again Yidisheryid: Thanks again for a good response. Look we can go and on with these kinds of discussions until the cows come home (as the expression goes) but it will not solve anything, because by now our discussions reflect the real-life struggles and contradictions of the many different approaches to (Orthodox) Judaism in the world, and we are not going to solve it. The main thing we should be focusing on is to how to move forward to create good articles and spend our time on being good editors and not huffing and puffing hot air using up Wikipedia's servers and hospitality. Like good guests we should also know our limits. And I commend you again, as I have already stated on your talk page that you have come up with an excellent idea for creating a Modern Orthodox Judaism outreach article. And as I have said over there, this means that there will also be articles about Religious Zionism outreach, Haredi Judaism outreach and Hasidic Judaism outreach and I will certainly try to get them going and build them up. And now I would like to "very briefly" reply to your points above, because they deserve a response:


 * 1) This is not about "my" or "your" definition of anything. I don't know about Hitler, nothing was ever proven, although there is talk about his father being a bastard child of an unknown father. I have read the books, but there is nothing to prove who the "real" grandfather was. But in any case, this is not a new topic, many of the worst enemies of the Jewish people have come from Jewish stock. Almost all the first communists and Bolsheviks were Jews. There are some writers who claim that Torquemada was born a Jew or came from Jews. Hey, even Jesus, who created a new religion was a Jew, so what's the big deal about that? Nothing! Some of the worst and best people in history have been Jews, and yes, it would be nice from Judaism's POV if they had all remained loyal sons and daughters of the Jewish people, but the ways of the Lord are very mysterious shall we say, and let's leave it at that.
 * 2) It is not fair to generalize about the "Israeli government" because it's more complicated than that. Don't make it sound like The Passover Plot or the sinister The Protocols of the Elders of Zion because there are very fine Haredi and Hasidic Jews who are part of that very government. And there is both good and bad going on, depending on your POV.
 * 3) At the highest level, all the serious work of kiruv is very much tied in with serious politics at the present time. Once upon a time, when the real Baal teshuva movement was born in the 1960s there was no politics from above, but it was tied in to the radical politics of the youth rebellion. Then Lubavitch got involved and as you know everything they do is tied in with politics wherever they go. The Lubavitcher Rebbe, the chief mekarever ("outreach worker") of our age, was also the one who fought the strongest political battles everywhere especially in Israel to get the Israeli government to approve the Who is a Jew? issue made according to Halacha. And today, wowee kazowee, every kiruv effort from the Jewish establishement comes with serious political calculations so that one can safely say that the Baal teshuva movement has lost its innocenec and "virginity" -- it's now a hard-core movement tied in with politics and big money from all directions by all the groups. That is just the way it is.
 * 4) The majority of Russians who have come to Israel are Jews. I don't know all the percentages, but the vast majority are Jews. That is not "my" figure. At any rate, it would be impossible to disentangle the Jewish religious and personal family motives from the political and Zionist ones for making Aliyah. You are trying to split hairs where there are none to split.
 * 5) Aliyah is very much a huge factor in the world of kiruv. Remember, what we should be trying to do is to see the total picture, not from our own limited visions, but from what is going on in the Jewish world. And you are wrong to say that Aliyah, and education about Israel and Zionism are not part of over-all kiruv. Think of Birthright Israel when millionares in America are trying to connect secular Jews with their land and people by trips to Israel. This is a disembodied fraction of the totality of Jewish outreach (we are not just talking of them making people religious right away) and it's not even connected to teaching about God, but it's meant as Jewish outreach. In Russia, the ones who broke through and set the examples were very inspired by Judaism and Zionism (who can deny it?), some became very religious and some did not, and they led the long trek of Jews from Russia to Israel. And I know that Satmar has done kiruv, you can add that information to Hasidic Judaism outreach. Bottom line, it is not good to generalize and say that Aliyah is not part of the "kiruv equation" because many Baalei teshuva today from all over the world are the ones who are most of Western Olim to Israel because they feel it is part of their spiritual growth. The out-of-town communities can offer very little to a person who becomes frum. The few Kollel families are too busy making sure they get chalav yisroel to drink and that their own little kiddies don't get absorbed into their "treife" environment, and New York is just not for the Baalei teshuva, so they apply with Nefesh B'Nefesh and get the help from the organizations and the Israeli government to move to and settle in Israel. Those are the facts even if one does not like them.
 * 6) Rav Kook was a Torah giant and he was not what people say or think he was, so I don't know what the pishers you mention even understand about him or what they do or don't do because of or different to what Rav Kook did or thought. The point is that Rabbi Kook was a major rabbinical leader in the early twentieth century who was involved in laying the foundation for reaching out to all Jews in Palestine. In spite of his rabbinical feud with the holy Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, there are pictures of them together on a mission, to bring closer to Yiddishkeit the secular atheist socialist chalutzim and farmers. (I think they went to encourage the farmers to keep Shemita, so it's good to mention this in our year of Shemita now as a merit to their memories.) They showed the way to all their followers (but even in their times their were the crazy self-appointed kanoim who made life miserable for everyone), but the two rabbis did much more, after all did not Rav Sonnenfeld mekarev the murdered (by the Zionists, yes) Professor Jacob Israël de Haan? And was not Rav Kook the one who laid the foundation of all the Religious Zionist yeshivot in Israel that have and do bring tens of thousands closer to Judaism every year until the present time? (Even though you may not like that they most certainly are all still proud Zionists -- you know, the way God made the world, there is room for all good people, and even some problematic ones as well.)
 * 7) "I" was not making up rules and I was not telling people what to do. I was describing what was happening and trying to explain it. (Description and explanation is what I learned to do in college and university and they are not the same thing as giving one's own opinion. I have not given you my own opinion about things yet and probably never will, because why does it matter?) But the fact is that many Jews come to Israel first, say for example all those travelling students with back-packs, and they they then get involved with something that seems of feels "Jewish" to them. Sometimes it's a kibbutz. Sometimes its a girl (or guy for a girl) and sometimes it's a friendly Chosid (or Meir Shuster) who invites them for Shabbos. But these kids who then very often become religious and make their homes in Israel came not because of religion, but because they travelled to or moved to Israel. And with the Russian Jews, they are coming to Israel physically from a communist education (another invention by a guy born a Jew Karl Marx) and for the first time they have freedom to be Jews and then start the slow road back to Judaism. True, there are neo-Nazi punks among them, but the vast majority are hard-working sincere Jews and if the right way is found they can be reached and they are being reached by some organizations that understand their mentality. But cursing them and treating them like crap will NOT bring them closer to Judaism or make them have warm and fuzzy feelings for fat (or skinny) Chasidim with beards and sixteen kids apiece.
 * 8) The holy rabbis disagree about many, many things, and the question of how to deal with the modern age, the rise of Zionism, the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine, and even about the way to deal with and handle the rising tide of the Baal teshuva movement. That is the way of the rabbis and that is the way of the Torah and Judaism. There are Shivim ponim laTorah "seventy faces to the Torah" and only in the times of the true Jewish Messiah will there ever be harmony of ideas and true peace. Until that time many of us will have to agree to disagree.
 * 9) As I said, America was behind the creation of the State of Israel and without the USA, then Israel could NOT exist for five minutes strategically. Probably that is why the Jihadists are so determined to get at America because even though other people don't know, the Jihadists know how important America is to Israel in a million ways.
 * 10) Let's try to keep our personal opinions about Reform Jews out of the discussion and try to examine what the plusses or minuses are of what they do or do not do from different perspectives, but we should keep our opinions out of the discussions, and especially out of the official articles on Wikipedia.
 * 11) About Sharpton I do not want to talk. He has Jewish blood on his hands too (see Crown Heights Riot.) And we can agree that the so-called "anti-Zionist" guys running around kissing the Iranians in front of TV cameras are a lunatic fringe. One can rationalise all day about how "wonderful" there deeds turn out to be even though they didn't want to be regarded as "wonderful" in the first place. They are not worthy of words because in some places they would get the punishment of traitors.
 * 12) Rav Noach Weinberg is a puzzle. So far, no-one knows how he built his empire. As for having a second wife, it is such a well-kept secret by his followers and the yeshiva world and there is such a perfect information shut-down and blackout about it that people don't know or don't believe it. But I have heard this a few times from different sources, yet no-one can even give a name for his second wife. His wife Dina was/is famous. He has about 22 kids with her and helped her build a kiruv school EYAHT for ba'alas teshuvas, but in recent years nothing much has been heard about this. But it's on the web but is Dina the first or second wife? Who is the mystery woman? So all this would need better sources and citations to prove it. In fact in his official article Rabbi Noach Weinberg I don't think it's mentioned. Some even claim that he was "defrocked" by some Haredi rabbis, but about this no-one seems to know either. Maybe it is just all loshen hora.
 * 13) Aish money comes from Hollywood and Wall Street and lots of other places all over the world. Next to Chabad, they are the best fundraisers from the non-religious. How they do it and what their secret is no-one knows for sure except a few individuals in the inner organization.
 * 14) I didn't say that Aliyah is part of Orthodox Jewish outreach, but it is connected to it, as all the parts are connected to the whole, and the total subject that they are all connected to is Jewish outreach of which Aliyah is a part.
 * 15) I don't know how you function or who is or is not working with or without you on Wikipedia so I will reserve my judgment on this.

This was supposed to be a "short" reply but, as usual it turned out longer and it's a compliment to the insight and content of what you have had to say. Hopefully we can talk like this instead of getting out of hand and using "tricky" ways (as you call them.) IZAK 11:23, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * OK we have come to one conclusion. we both agree that Aliya is not part of Orthodox Jewish outreach, but it is connected to it. Aliyah does not play a bigger part than the Kolelim and Mivtsaim, but since the last ones are only about the Orthodox approach it cannot be included in this Jewish overall template list. I must apologize publicly to Izak, since my ignorance triggered this long tiering debate for no reason, just i forgot about Rav Kook's approach, I will watch next time more to think better twice and deeply when an other user does something! I was wrong please forgive me!--יודל 12:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Yidisheryid I don't know what you are apologizing for, so no need to apologize to me for anything. We both mean well. But please do not mix up what I said. I did NOT say that Aliyah "cannot be included in this Jewish overall template list" in fact I said the opposite, that Aliyah is a different part of Jewish outreach and it must stay on this template, and of course Aliyah is not like Orthodox Jewish outreach which includes the kollelim and mivtsaim. In its own way Aliyah is far huger because in its essence it is a process of Jews reaching out to other Jews and bringing them home to Palestine/Israel by the millions, something that bare Orthodox Jewish outreach alone has not achieved. IZAK 12:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * From a wikipedia neutrall standpoint, the Home of the Jews is not yet established, that it is our home. I know most religious and traditional Jews and Christens do consider Israel the Jewish Home, but I and most secular people of the world would refute that as a fact. so when we talk about a NPOV i cannot call your house my family's home, because i cannot rely only on my family's opinion, I must first get your permsion, and the rent deposit check for the landlord must first clear in the bank, to call it my home.

Hopefully the world will some day consider Israel a Jewish home, in fact the Jewish religion dictates to us that the Messiah will be enough charismatic and convincing that those Arabs in the middle east, and the weasels from Europe will agree, but right now we are still in exile (even rav kook did not say exile is over, he only said that Israel is a beginning of the redemption) and returning Jews to Israel is not a think about Jewish outreach overall, yes some Jews do indeed think so like rav kook, and since this template list includes all Jewish thought, even fringe groups, and Rav Kook was spit out of main stream Hareidim, most of his followers do indeed call themselves Modern Orthodox or hardel so i cannot see what you disagree with me, but if you really think i am off here we can continue our debate via email, right now i feel we have reached consensus through both of us coming right in the middle of the far ends where we were in the begining of the discussion, and acknowledging our opposed POV's on this, You except the Satamr view on this as fact, and i except Rav Kook's view on this as fact. Thanks for your kind words about my intentions, i will be more careful in the future not to say that you said something but from reading you i came across with this impression and it makes perfect sense, I was embarrassed because of my ignorance here in the beginning. and i was wrong.--יודל 13:05, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Yidisheryid: As I said we must agree to disagree. Believe me I have nothing against Satmar. I respect them more than you even know, but there are many (big and small) fish in the sea, and when we log on to Wikipedia and especially when writing articles we cannot think that we are in the lobby of a Satmar shtiebel and we cannot say whatever we want about "Tziyoinim-this-and-Tziyoinim-that" (tsiyoinim ahin un tsiyoinim aher) since on Wikipedia there needs to be a WP:NPOV as you well know. I would just like to add, looking at one of your nasty comments, that if I wrote that the Baal Shem Tov was "spit out of Klal Yisroel" (as you know the Vilna Gaon has put all Chasidim into Cherem until this very day), so that you would not be a happy camper if anyone stated such an insult to such a holy great rabbi and Tzadik, therefore please do not say that "Rav Kook was spit out of main stream Hareidim" as it may hurt the feelings of many thousands of wonderful erhliche un teire yidden. Also you are now making another mistake, Rav Kook was the "father" of Religious Zionism in Palestine/Israel, and he had NO connection really to Modern Orthodox Judaism (he died in 1935 before the Holocaust and before there was a Jewish state.) It was mostly Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik (1903 -1993) of Yeshiva University who developed the ideas behind Modern Orthodox Judaism that are based on Torah Umadda a VERY Western and American idea and practice that is not so popular in Israel, even among the Religious Zionists who prefer to be connected to Zionism and Torah study. True the Modern Orthodox movement in America admires and likes Rabbi Kook, but they are NOT the same thing. Rav Kook's system and ideas (he wrote many deep mystical seforim about the topic) are the heart of Religious Zionism's ideology, just like the Vayoel Moshe is the heart of Satmar's anti-Zionism ideology. Eilu ve'eilu divrei elokim chayim. Rav Kook was also a known mekubal (Kabbalist) this I have garnered from some great rabbis who were his disciples. Please take note of all this. Thank you, IZAK 14:20, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Rav Kook wasn't all about mystic as you paint him, he was not an angel he was human, and he was indeed a respected former Hareidi big Rabbi who has parted ways with his people, by his own choosing, and the reasons why are very well logical and not mystical at all, he was not excepted as chief rabbi of Jerusalem under reb shmuel salant, after his father in law passed away very young, and he had Torah'dige claims of Yerusha for that position, so he was bitter and decided to leave his hareidi community, he was and still is despised and ridiculed for this by most hareidim, satamr rav even cursed him, but he was respected for what he was a giant torah Jew who changed ways of Judaism from before. And his love to Israel was used to do many thinks that other jews consider heretic. the mystic stuff is irrelevant since nobody even himself will argue that it is logic. to claim that he is not about Outreach is a bit of extreme argument because his works are indeed used today as the inspiration of so many Jews who came back to their tradition but maybe u r right because in some views, many more jews left their heritage because of him as well, but the numbers are unclear to write it in a NPOV way. The Baal shem tov is not considerd by one single Jew today as not a positive force to Judaism, and i can see this should happen with rav kook in the future but not very soon.--יודל 14:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Just a "few" points in response (you know I cannot let you get away with twisting my words and making up things that I never said.) Rav Kook was a mystic, that is known, just read his many books, it is not in dispute, unlike most Litvishe rabbis who know little about Kabbalah and they don't want to know about it either. I did not say he was an "angel" only angels are angels. I did not say that his positions were based on being mystical as such. I just said that he was a known mekubal. He did not "leave" any Haredi community because the word "Haredi" did not exist in those days as it is used today and there were very few "Haredi" families in Palestine in those days, so it's like saying he moved across the street because Chaim Yankel didn't like him. People who despise great rabbis are fools, that is self-evident. The Satmar Rov was a smart man, and I would like to know when he cursed Rav Kook? Were you there when he said it? Was anyone? Or was this a pure myth that was made up to suit the "one agenda" system of "anti-Zionism" (I mean, it's as bad as the Lubavitchers who always hak a chainik about "Moshiach, Moshiach"  by Satmar it's "Tsiyoinim, Tsiyoinim"!) Judaism is not witchcraft and belief in curses are meant to frighten children. If Rav Zonnenfeld was a gentleman and there is no record that he "cursed" Rav Kook, why should the Satmar Rebbe be "frummer" than him? It also is known that the Gerrer Rebbe of those days came personally to "check up" on Rav Kook in those days and found him to be a great man and profound Torah scholar. So do you think that the Satmar Rebbe was frummer than the Gerrer Rebbe also? Remember: If not for the Zionist Nazi collaborator Kastner, the Satmar Rebbe would have become chopped meat in concentration camp, is there a record that he ever thanked Kastner for saving his life? Sure he thanked the Eibishter that's easy, how about thanking a mixed up (Hungarian heimishe) Jew who saved your life? You mix up my words yet again. I state very clearly that Rav Kook's works influenced the Religious Zionists in Palestine/Israel and he was more connected to the struggle of the Jews in Palestine and that he was not so much connected to the American Modern Orthodox (because they eventually had rabbis like Rav Soloveitchik and his more Western Germanic philosophies that they liked better.) I clearly state that Rav Kook was very much into outreach, he basically invented it in the modern Land of Israel on his own, he was the first to see the good that could be done to bring atheist socialist youngsters back to their Judaism, when the rest of the very religious Jewish world thought that he was nuts to do that and instead they spent their time "cursing" him (as you say -- it seems to be bad habit of frum people to curse people and they should stop it because it's disgusting and does not turn anyone on to Yidishekeit, it's only a scare tactic.) Rav Kook was nice to secular people and tried to mekarev them. Only now eighty years later are the modern-day Haredim waking up and seeing the light of the possibilities of outreach and trying to figure out how to do what Rav Kook was already doing almost a hundred years ago. He was almost a modern "prophet" of the Baal teshuva movement one could say, because he anticipated it and worked for it, yet people like to kill the messenger because they don't like the message, like what happened to Zechariah Isaiah and Jeremiah, it always happens to some of the greatest men in a generation. I did not say that any Jews left because of him, that is just you mixing up my words again. I do not think that one person left Judaism because of Rav Kook who was a man of peace. Can you name such a person or cite a source that something like that really happened? I think that some people left and leave the crazy extreme Haredi family circles that stifle many of their own people and give them no option because everything is in "black or white" and there is no middle ground to survive. Rav Kook taught that there is a middle ground and that no-one should be forced to choose between their Judaism and their humanity. And yes, sure the Baal Shem Tov is considered a positive force by everyone today, including me, but the Vilna Gaon did not care what "everyone" thinks, he just put all Chasidim into a Cherem until the coming of the true Jewish Messiah and there is nothing that "everyone" or "anyone" can do about it. It is just there. Adios. IZAK 20:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * OK so now this is about satamr rebbe. i do not have to say that satamr rebbe was and is respected and admired by virtually jews alike and rav kook today has no hareidi followers what so ever, you bring a story of gerer rebbe that he gave some honor to him or rav zonenfeld, this was all before he left hareidy Judaism, please note that today the world isn't crazy we don't need to rewrite history here, no livisher yid followers the vilner goen's cherem and there must be that the vilner gaon himself would retract this, again the world isnt carzy, if he would not retract his cherem no litvishe yid would hold of the baal shem tov. About satmar rebbe i am not going to defend his holiness because there is no need, but i want u to know that castner was respecting satmar rebbe and that's why he considered his actions to save him as holy and he was paid so you don't even make a case to diminish satmar rav. be blessed.--יודל 22:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi again Yidisheryid. I am not arguing about the saintliness of the Satmar Rebbe or any Rebbe for that matter (but I do not know if the world agrees with us on this) and I am also not arguing about the saintliness of Rav Kook (and I know you don't agree with me on this. So what?) I do not think that latter-day POV Haredim have the monopoly to know who God considers to be a saint or not a saint. In fact many gentiles are also saints such as the חסידי אומות העולם‎ Righteous Among the Nations that are saints for all the amazing things they have done by Torah standards. The Satmar Rebbe may have been a saint, but unfortunately you are being naive if you think that all Haredim are in love with Satmar. The Lubavitchers and the Belzers are for sure angry at Satmar for the way they abused their Rebbes and Chasidim at different times (even though there were cordial relations between the rebbes of course, among the Chasidim there is a lot of unfortunate public crazy behavior at times, and you know it.) Note that Rav Kook died in 1935, and the Satmar Rebbe passed away in 1979 more than 40 years difference and in that time a lot happened. Rav Kook worked in Turkish and British Palestine whereas The Satmar Rebbe worked in Romania and the USA, different times and different worlds apart and it's unfair to compare them really, they don't even have anything in common except that they were great rabbis who tried to solve problems and help their people. No-one said that Rav Kook has "Haredi followers" today, he was quite happy to be the founder and leader of Religious Zionism as a new movement in Orthodoxy just like Hasidism was a new movement in Orthodoxy (yeah, I know that the Satmar Rebbe held that "chadash assur min HaTorah" but he should have looked in the mirror [of history] when he said that.) It was, and is, through the Mizrachi and Religious Zionism that Rav Kook reached out to literally hundreds of thousands of Jews and if not for him they would not be connected to the Torah but they would have become pure atheist Zionists or worse. Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld died in 1932 (three years before Rav Kook) and his relationship and views of Rav Kook never changed, so that while he held that Rav Kook was a giant in Torah, yet he did not ever agree to Rav Kook moving to Jerusalem and becoming the British Chief Rabbi, and he would therefore refer to Rav Kook as the "Rav of Jaffa" where Rav Kook had been before moving to Jerusalem to take up his new office. The personal contact that the Gerrer Rebbe (Avraham Mordechai Alter the Imrei Emes) had with Rav Kook actually increased Rav Kook's prestige because the Gerrer Rebbe came as an emissary of the pre-Holocaust European World Agudath Israel and he reported to them that everything that people were saying about Rav Kook was false and that it was the opposite and that Rav Kook was a saintly and great Torah personality (this has been published in books) -- even though they did not agree with Rav Kook's outlook. But this is neither here nor there, they were all great people and it is only the only ba'alei machlokes ("troublemakers") that look/ed for ways to destroy the peace and unity among all Orthodox Jews. As for the Cherem of the Vilna/Vilner Gaon and its Halachik ramifications, you may not like it and you can deny it as much as you like, but I suggest that you can read up about this for yourself. But ask yourself why it is that there is still huge split between the Chasidishe and the Litvishe (misnagdishe) world in almost all ways, and you will see that the Cherem of the Gaon against Chasidim is probably the main root of it, even though they may get along in some other areas, even though most people don't have a clue why there is still the split today in all the key areas. So no-one is "changing" history, on the contrary it is part of both history and reality. IZAK 06:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * every word you have written in the last comment is true, thanks for calryfying the facts.--יודל 05:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, please see the message again it was cut off and got posted early, I now added the end. Thanks. IZAK 06:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes that piece about the split betwean Chasidim and Litvakes is pure comentery and it does not hold any water. If u want to hear me, if its that important for u my opinion we can email each other. But overall about rav kook and satamr rav we are in agreement, have a blessed week.--יודל 06:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, I think we have Emailed each othe enough, and by having these discussions on Wikiepdia article talk pages it makes us focus harder and most importantly I am SURE that it helps the world to see what is behind these topics, that they are not small subjects and that big issues are involved as far as Judaism is concerned. The number ONE rule both of us must remember is WP:CIVIL, to choose the way of peace, because the other way will not be good for either of us. So let's keep talking here, with nothing to hide and hope for the best. (By the way, so do you have a better explanation for the plit that exists between the Chasidim and the Livishe Velt? I'd be glad to hear it.) Thanks, IZAK 06:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As i told u in the last email, Chasidim are no more split from Litwakes than the many Chasidic groups are split from each other, the only explanation for all these splits is the traditinal unique ways of life they all got from where they come from, no need for another made up explanation, this is ridicules to say that even one litvak thinks that the chasidim must be in cherem today. Anyways i have no problrm answering u here if u insist. i just sugested privacy for u, if u think that its better that u expose our differences for the world, i am more than wiling to try to explain as far as i can. Thanks--יודל 06:21, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks. As I said, if we agree to TRY to play 100% by the rules of Civility and No personal attacks there is no reason for us to have private Email conversations. I would prefer to remain on the record as that is conducive to better focus on Wikipedia and on what we are trying to achieve as editors. Otherwise what is the point of having long-distance debates on Email? Nothing! You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, that's life. May I suggest that you also try to use Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism, and not to be so negative about the editors there, as that will integrate you into the other Jewishly-interested editors instead of isolating you. It is important to win their confidence as that is the main place that those editors involved with Jews and Judaism articles come together as humanly possible on Wikipedia that enhances Consensus. Thanks, IZAK 06:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I am a member in that Wiki-Project, and i do find it very benefital, thanks--יודל 06:40, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Yidisheryid: Great, so then we agree again, this is much more refreshing than making (editorial) war/s. As for WP:JUDAISM I was not referring to just being a member of it, what I am saying is that you should use it by putting questions and things that may bother you on its talk page, which is why I pointed out Wikipedia talk WikiProject Judaism. It is really helpful. IZAK 09:15, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I do not need that Wiki Project to get Jewish help if i have a question about Judaism there is real Rabbis for that, if i have a Wikipedia question i don't beliave its right to get a Jewish answer. I am simply involved there to see what Jewish issues need help from me.--יודל 10:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Messianic Judaism is not "Jewish" outreach
Hmm, why did first include Messianic Judaism into this template, and then delete it? He did the same at Jewish outreach, adding Messianic Judaism with the self-justification: "added 4th group of jews who claim that they are jews and do outreach as their main mision as a jewish caouse." (If I claim that I am a millionare, does that make me into one? Saying something does not make it so.) It would be totally outrageous to claim that by converting a Jew to Christianity that it's a form of formal "Jewish outreach" in any way shape size or form. IZAK 06:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Look in the history and everything will be clear, because some believe the Reform and Conservative and the Zionist to be the same Jews as the Messianic Jews but since it is the minority opinion it was reverted back.--יודל 12:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You are playing games with edits, and it's not funny. So far on Wikipedia this has not been accepted. In any case, according to logic and theology, the Reform and Conservatives do not claim to be Christians whereas the Messianics do claim to believe in Jesus and that makes them part of the Christian religion (because noone can believe in Jesus and be part of Judaism at the same time -- Judaism says so.) So far, the Reform and the Conservatives do not believe in Jesus and if they ever did do such a thing officially then they would no longer be part of Judaism. IZAK 02:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Listen the Reform are far more removed from any Religion than the Christians, never mind the Jewish Religion. But it does not matter for me, becaouse Jewishness is not only a religion. If the mother is a Jew then the kid is a Jew no matter where and what he practices. Lets not go into the numbers where more Jews are; in a reform temples or a Messianic outreach centers. I reverted my edit simply on this fact that the Reform consider themselves Jews and the Messianics do not, and my personal opinion does not come into my editing pattern at all. So it was my mistake and i apologized long before you decided to bring this up. Thanks for bringing it up but i don't see why it is impotent since i already reverted my edit long ago and the edit was not there for more then 15 minutes.--יודל 12:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it's because, like Kerry who "supported the Iraq war but voted against it" you have flip-flopped so many times on subjects and issues which requires that all your moves be watched for erratic editing that may conceal other problems. For example, to remind you: You first cut out a huge chunk from the original Baal teshuva article and moved it to a new article that you created Orthodox Jewish outreach. However when that article was nominated for deletion you agreed to have it deleted. So why did you remove material from that article and move it to Orthodox Jewish outreach and then agree quickly to have it deleted? You already told me that you want to "destroy my work" on Wikipedia and since I was one of the original contributors to the Baal teshuva article which had been around for over FOUR years, it became a target. So that was a neat trick, but you failed, because the article was kept. You then did the same thing with the AJOP article, which you created first and then when it was nominated for deletion you flip-flopped and then voted to delete it because you saw the improvements that I had made to it with sources and style. The question was then posted by someone whether the two articles Baal teshuva and Orthodox Jewish outreach were needed since due to your cutting and pasting they had the same content. I also requested input, and this is where the debate at Talk:Baal teshuva came in, about organizing the topic in a more systematic way. My proposal was to create a new article called Baal teshuva movement which I did. It is about the movement of the people who become part of what has become widely-known as the "Baal teshuva movement" and I finally moved some material from the Baal teshuva article about this into it. The remainder of what was in the original Baal teshuva article, since it deals with the rabbis and organizations that do outreach/kiruv work, is now in the Orthodox Jewish outreach article (which you created and I improved) which I then tidied up. I painstakingly wrote the new Baal teshuva movement article and cited many reliable sources from secular academics and from some Jewish sources. Of course, you has had a fit. You did not like the new article and you especially despise the word "movement" in it in spite of the fact that I have cited numerous sources, and many more which can be found when Googling for "Baal teshuva movement." As for the Baal teshuva article itself, my proposal was to turn it into a disambiguation page leading to at least three ways for a start, to Orthodox Jewish outreach (because previously secular and unaffiliated Jews who join Orthodoxy are referred to as ""Baal teshuvas"), to Baal teshuva movement, and to Repentance in Judaism (because the process of repentance in Judaism is called "Teshuva" and a penitant, meaning all Jews, is a "Baal teshuva"). In my re-organization, the term "Baal teshuva" should be part of the Repentance in Judaism article where it belongs for logical and theological reasons. The latter-day "Baal teshuvas" and the associated "Baal teshuva movement" are a still unfolding  modern-day phenomena of Jewish history. But you didn't like that I made the Baal teshuva page into a "disambiguation" page and re-pasted material about what a "Baal teshuva" is from the Repentance in Judaism page, and added a "See also" on it to Baal teshuva movement and  Orthodox Jewish outreach and the rest. Now, as the discussion has moved on, you have been praising the efforts of Christian missionaries and now here as well comparing them to the work of Jewish outreach workers or to Reform Judaism. Your edits are indeed worrisome for they lack consistency and so one can never tell when the WP:POINT and WP:DISRUPT axe will fall. IZAK 10:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S. It's also pretty obvious that you are not playing with a full deck because you simplly never call the Baal teshuvas by their name correctly. With you it's "Baaly Thsuvas " or "Baly thsuvas" or "Baally Tshuvahs" or "Bally thsuvahs" showing utter disregrad and disrespect to the very subject you discuss. IZAK 10:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Please see my answer here, thanks--יודל 17:08, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And mine Thank you, IZAK 12:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)