Template talk:Lutheran hymns

Scope
I am not quite sure about the scope of this article navbox. Sometimes I am not sure if an author is Lutheran, or is it enough to have ended in a Lutheran hymnal? Somtimes I am not sure it's a hymn, such as "Es ist genug", which never made it to a hymnal afaik, but was used as a Bach chorale. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:02, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Re. "..."Es ist genug", which never made it to a hymnal..." – It did: Neu Leipziger Gesangbuch, p. 982. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:12, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Also Zahn 7173: Zahn gives a few variants of the melody from different hymnals and composers. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:24, 28 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Re. "... this article" – Well, it is not an article: it is a navbox. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:12, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Re. scope: a hymn in this navbox needs...
 * ... to have a separate Wikipedia article (no navboxes on redirects: redirects can be added to Category:Lutheran hymns though)
 * ... to be "Lutheran", which I understand as deeply embedded in Lutheran practice, and "a hymn", i.e.:
 * Preferably originated in Lutheranism, or at least to a larger extent adopted in Lutheranism than in any other tradition
 * Preferably in vernacular (which would be mostly German), although a few macaronic ones may be eligible too; most Latin hymns (several of them were adopted in Lutheranism) would be largely excluded
 * Preferably formally a hymn, i.e. metrical and/or with a melody listed by Zahn (would exclude Meine Seele erhebt den Herren)
 * As the bulk of Lutheran hymn production had ceased by the end of the 17th century very few of those composed at a later date would be eligible (BWV 505 might be an exception, if it ever gets a separate article)
 * Demonstrably adopted in Lutheran church practice (doesn't need to be EG or a recent hymnal: may e.g. have been widely adopted in 17th-century hymnals, and then forgotten)
 * Please let us know whether you think this workable criteria: they probably can be fine-tuned. Individual borderline cases (some Christmas hymns as well adopted inside and outside of Lutheranism come to mind) can be discussed here or at the article's talk page whether they should be included in this navbox or not. I'm a bit weary the navbox may become unwieldy in the long run (there are over 160 hymns listed currently in the Lutheran hymns category... if they would all get separate articles other solutions may be necessary): thus I would exclude borderline cases mostly, and/or make the selection criteria still more exclusive. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:12, 28 November 2017 (UTC)


 * The criteria are fine with me, but see below, what with those which don't fit? - When I wrote "hymnal" above, I was sloppy and didn't specify "to be sung by a congregation", which the early collections were not, and I doubt that the typical Leipzig church-goer would carry the Neu Leipziger Gesangbuch. But I may be wrong? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:28, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The Neu Leipziger Gesangbuch marks a few (mostly monodic) songs/hymns as "choraliter" (as opposed to "figuraliter" being implied for most of the others): choraliter implying, as far as I understand, to be sung by the congregation. The next edition of the Leipziger Gesangbuch (1693) only contained hymn texts (without music) and had a compacter format – by then practice was changing: "Cantional" type of hymnals (of which the 1682 Neu Leipziger Gesangbuch had been one of the last prominent examples) had grown out of fashion, and the congregation sung all of the hymn tunes (as monodic melodies) with an instrumental accompaniment realising the harmony (the Figuralmusik was less often printed, and if so, e.g. cantata cycles by Telemann, not in hymnals). Also Schemellis Gesangbuch (1736) adopted the "choraliter only" format: less than 10% of the hymns had music, and those that had only as a monodic singing tune with a harmonic instrumental accompaniment (written down as thorough bass in this instance). --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:48, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for explaining. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:19, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

The others?
What should we do with the other hymns, Catholic, Ecumenical, Reformed, some falling in more than one category which we also don't (yet) have? I sang "Lobe den Herren" last Sunday in a Catholic church, - some "Lutheran" are sung there quite frequently. The mark "ö" in the hymnals, Protestant and Catholic, marks common use for both. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:16, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * List of Roman Catholic hymns exists, so Roman Catholic hymns as a navbox would likely be possible;
 * Similar, List of Christmas carols → Christmas carols
 * etc. ... --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:29, 28 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, but what about one both Protestant and Catholic, such as Lobe den Herren, - how can ecumnism show? - Btw, I'd say Catholic hymns, corresponding to Catholic Church. "Roman" looks almost misleading for the many German hymns ;) - For Catholic, we face more than for Protestant that the traditional singing was not rhymed and metered, but still hymns, at least in the first meaning "songs of praise". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:41, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I have few opinions on which of these would be feasible or not. So either be bold and start those you think most likely to succeed, or take this discussion to a more general platform (e.g. a suitable project talk page): whatever is not about Lutheran hymns and its limits should probably better be discussed elsewhere. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:02, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, later perhaps, busy. I was just looking for a place for "Es ist ein Ros entsprungen" which still is in the cat Lutheran hymns, and rightly so, because it's in current use, and beloved, in Lutheran/Protestant services, in a slightly different wording from the original. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:19, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * (I know this is old, but I read it anyway)--With Catholic hymns, due to the large number of them, you would need to separate the hymns by topic, with a separate template for each topic. This is already done (interdenominationally) for Template:Advent as a separate subsection. In theory you could even nest some of the smaller templates together in rare cases where this is preferred--for example, a Lent hymn template could nest together with a Holy Week hymn template. One concern with integrating smaller boxes into one big template is that collapsible subboxes may not show well on mobile phones. Possibly separating the template into smaller topic templates will need to be done to the Lutheran hymn template if it grows a lot more. --Epiphyllumlover (talk) 19:25, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Format
Do we need all the quotation marks? I understand that we need them in prose, to see what's a hymn name because it looks like prose, but why in this navbox where it's clear? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:10, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I'd say they are not needed, if nobody opposes they can be removed as far as I'm concerned (for comparison, in Bach spurious they were needed while containing as well short vocal works as cantatas). --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:55, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Let's wait a week perhaps. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:21, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Topics
I agree that sorting the hymns by topic is better than the load of foreign-language titles. I miss seeing which songs are based on psalms, one of Luther's early intentions. These go to different topics. "Ein feste Burg" = Psalm 46. What can we do? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:17, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * We could make a text appear floating when you hover over it. I will try it for just one and see if you like it.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 19:09, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I did it with Macht hoch die Tür, Lift Up Your Heads--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 19:15, 30 April 2019 (UTC)


 * IMHO the by topic + translation and whatever other expansion has been given to the template absolutely horrendous while it makes the table way too big for practical use. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:54, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree, at least for mobile use. Maybe I should separate it into two templates, one in English-titles only and one in original languages? People could collapse the one they don't want to look through. The English-titles-only template would be missing some that have not been translated, or are only used as tunes. There isn't a single hymn article yet that has been written about a hymn in English first and is not German/Norwegian/Swedish.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 23:24, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * A split seems indicated. By language would be a first step. I'd also return to alphabetical listing: different navboxes can be made for occasions, and for Psalm-based hymns. --Francis Schonken (talk) 03:46, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I am opposed to alphabetical listing on the proposed English one for now. Looking at the monthly statistics it seems that a large proportion of the visits for seasonal hymns come during the church seasons in which they are used--this means (I think) people are using the topic sections. I'm not sure about on the proposed German one; I want to see what Gerda says. If both of you want it strictly alphabetical I can edit it to be that way.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 04:03, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Maybe like this: --Epiphyllumlover (talk) 05:06, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

This is rather what I had in mind. Already done for all German Lutheran Easter hymns. The German Lutheran hymns template can be used in articles on hymns for other feasts too; the "Easter"-related template is a model for what can be made for other feasts, and for instance also for Psalm-based hymns (etc).

I really don't see the need for a template that directs readers (for instance) to Easter hymns at Christmas, and to Christmas hymns at Eastertide (even if your assumption above would be right, which I doubt). --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:52, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Also, there seems to be some confusion what a navigational template (navbox) like this one is for: it is to be placed in relevant articles, it is not an alternative structured list in template namespace. I say this because there were surprisingly few German Easter hymn pages that already had the current template (that is, before I placed the two other templates on these articles this morning). --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:59, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Also all hymns and songs listed in Hymns and songs based on Psalms now done. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:51, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I am in favor of separate seasonal templates for seasonal articles, but for hymn articles an alphabetized list by subject is best. As the non-seasonal hymns do not qualify for a seasonal template, one would need a generalized list for them anyway. It would not due to omit just the seasonal hymns for such a generalized list. I am going to go ahead and create the English template, and will use it alongside the German one on at least some articles for now. I may also seek feedback from the talk pages on individual hymns--like if it seems there may be too many templates.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 02:53, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Views of hymns
Note: I don't know why it says some of these articles have zero editors, obviously that is impossible unless everyone was an IP editor with no username. Stats in the table are from March 2019 through February 2020.

Sources (some are missing from the links below, but not many are missing. I also omitted at least one and maybe a few others from the table above due to the article being new):
 * |Det_kimer_nu_til_julefest|Bereden_v%C3%A4g_f%C3%B6r_Herran|Christum_wir_sollen_loben_schon|Gelobet_seist_du,_Jesu_Christ|Lobt_Gott,_ihr_Christen_alle_gleich|Macht_hoch_die_T%C3%BCr|Nun_komm,_der_Heiden_Heiland|Vom_Himmel_hoch,_da_komm_ich_her|Wie_soll_ich_dich_empfangen Advent/Christmas
 * |Wie_sch%C3%B6n_leuchtet_der_Morgenstern|Da_der_Herr_Christ_zu_Tische_sa%C3%9F|An_Wasserfl%C3%BCssen_Babylon|Ein_L%C3%A4mmlein_geht_und_tr%C3%A4gt_die_Schuld|Herzliebster_Jesu|O_Haupt_voll_Blut_und_Wunden|O_Lamm_Gottes,_unschuldig|O_Mensch,_bewein_dein_S%C3%BCnde_gro%C3%9F|O_Welt,_sieh_hier_dein_Leben Epiphany/Lent/Passion
 * |Erschienen_ist_der_herrlich_Tag|Geh_aus,_mein_Herz,_und_suche_Freud|Heut_triumphieret_Gottes_Sohn|Jesus_Christus,_unser_Heiland,_der_den_Tod_%C3%BCberwand|Jesus_f%C3%B6r_v%C3%A4rlden_givit_sitt_liv|Wir_wollen_alle_fr%C3%B6hlich_sein Easter
 * |Komm,_Heiliger_Geist,_Herre_Gott|Nun_bitten_wir_den_Heiligen_Geist|Allein_Gott_in_der_H%C3%B6h_sei_Ehr|Ach_Gott,_vom_Himmel_sieh_darein|A_Mighty_Fortress_Is_Our_God|Erhalt_uns,_Herr,_bei_deinem_Wort|God%27s_Word_Is_Our_Great_Heritage|W%C3%A4r_Gott_nicht_mit_uns_diese_Zeit|Wo_Gott_der_Herr_nicht_bei_uns_h%C3%A4lt Pentecost/Trinity/Reformation
 * |Sie_ist_mir_lieb,_die_werte_Magd|Jerusalem,_du_hochgebaute_Stadt|Dies_sind_die_heilgen_zehn_Gebot|Es_ist_das_Heil_uns_kommen_her|Nun_freut_euch,_lieben_Christen_g%27mein|Ach_Gott,_wie_manches_Herzeleid|Ach_lieben_Christen_seid_getrost|Blott_en_dag|Herr_Jesu_Christ,_du_h%C3%B6chstes_Guts spricht der Unweisen Mund wohl" The Church/Life Everlasting/Justification or Law and Gospel
 * |Straf_mich_nicht_in_deinem_Zorn|Warum_betr%C3%BCbst_du_dich,_mein_Herz|Warum_sollt_ich_mich_denn_gr%C3%A4men|Was_willst_du_dich_betr%C3%BCben|Wer_nur_den_lieben_Gott_l%C3%A4%C3%9Ft_walten Trials
 * |Im_Frieden_dein,_o_Herre_mein|Jesus_Christus,_unser_Heiland,_der_von_uns_den_Gotteszorn_wandt|Schm%C3%BCcke_dich,_o_liebe_Seele|Christ_unser_Herr_zum_Jordan_kam|Tryggare_kan_ingen_vara Lord's Supper/Baptism
 * |Es_ist_genug|Herr_Jesu_Christ,_wahr_Mensch_und_Gott|Herzlich_lieb_hab_ich_dich,_o_Herr|Herzlich_tut_mich_verlangen|Meinen_Jesum_la%C3%9F_ich_nicht|Mit_Fried_und_Freud_ich_fahr_dahin|Mitten_wir_im_Leben_sind|Nun_lasst_uns_den_Leib_begraben|Valet_will_ich_dir_geben Burials, missing the last one
 * |De_Levendes_Land|Die_beste_Zeit_im_Jahr_ist_mein|Du_meine_Seele_singe|Es_woll_uns_Gott_gen%C3%A4dig_sein|Herr_Gott,_dich_loben_wir|How_Great_Thou_Art|Ich_singe_dir_mit_Herz_und_Mund|Nun_danket_all_und_bringet_Ehr|Nun_danket_alle_Gott Wer weiss and Thanks and Praise
 * |Nun_lob,_mein_Seel,_den_Herren|Herr_Jesu_Christ,_dich_zu_uns_wend|Vater_unser_im_Himmelreich|Wir_glauben_all_an_einen_Gott|Die_g%C3%BCldne_Sonne_voll_Freud_und_Wonne|Wachet_auf,_ruft_uns_die_Stimme|Werde_munter,_mein_Gem%C3%BCte Two Thanks and Praise/Opening/Lord's Prayer/Creed/Morning/Evening

Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:08, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I collapsed the table. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:52, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay with me.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:59, 28 March 2020 (UTC)